Christian vs Atheist Debates

Below is a list of 583 debates. Use the search feature to narrow down your search. Comment below if you know of any debates not in this list.

ChristianAtheistFormatYearTopicNotes
Adam DeenAndrew CopsonAudiomoral argument
Adam DeenDan BarkerAudio2009
Adam DeenNorman RalphVideo
Adonaelwiploclink2008problem of evil
Adrian HollowayMichael ShermerAudio2009
afdaveConstant Mewslink2007Bible
Al SharptonChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2007
Alan KeyesAlan DershowitzAudio, Video, link2000
Albert CiprianiRGDlink2005
Alex McLellan and Marc SurteesJulian Baggini and othersVideo, Audio2009
Alexander CampbellRobert Owenbook1829
Alister McGrathCaspar MelvilleAudio2010
Alister McGrathChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio, link2007
Alister McGrathDaniel DennettAudio, book2008
Alister McGrathPeter AtkinsVideo, Audio2007
Alister McGrathRichard DawkinsAudio2007
Alister McGrathRoger PenroseAudio2010
Alister McGrathSue BlackmoreAudio
Alvin PlantingaDaniel DennettAudio2009discussion
Alvin PlantingaMichael Tooleybook2008
Alvin PlantingaPatrick Grimlink1993
Alvin PlantingaRichard GaleVideo, Audio2008problem of evil
Alvin PlantingaStephen LawAudio2010naturalism
Alvin Plantinga and othersPaul Draper and otherslink2008best!
Amy Orr-EwingNorman HansenAudio
Andrew SullivanSam Harrislink2007
Andrew WilsonNorman BacracAudio2009
Andrew_theistMadMax2976link2002
Andy BannisterEd TurnerAudio 1, 2
Andy BannisterNorman HansenAudio
Angus MenugeP.Z. MyersVideo, Audio2008neuroscience and religion
anonymousAlan Halelink1997
Answers in GenesisAustralian Skepticslink2005creationism
ApologiaNickDoubtingJohnlink
ApologiaPhoenixPitchforkpatlink2009morality
Apologist4HimCD Wardlink2003
Arthur HipplerGeorge KaneAudio
Ben WitheringtonMichael ShermerVideo, Audio2005short
Bible DefenderJohn Powelllink2005
Bible Defendershunyadragonlink2006
Bible JohnJohnny Skepticlink2006
Bible JohnTysixtuslink2006
blackapologistthe_eliot_onelink2008resurrection
Bob BalesChris Stassenlink1992creationism
Brandeis University JewsBrandeis University HumanistsVideo,Audio2008
Brandeis University JewsBrandeis University HumanistsVideo2009
Brian TraffordEarl Dohertylink2001historical Jesus
Briane BossePervylink2007
Burris JenkinsE. Haldeman-Juliuslink1930
Cal ThomasGeorge WillAudio, link
Canon Michael ColeSteven CarrAudio2008
Canon Michael ColeSteven CarrAudio2009(2nd debate)
Carl WielandPaul WillisVideocreationism
cartesianLuke Muehlhauserlink2009
Cees DekkerHerman PhilipseVideo2008
Charles FosterRobert StovoldAudio2009nativity
Charles FosterSusan BlackmoreAudio2010
ChrisNatepodcast
Chris HedgesChristopher HitchensAudio
Chris HedgesSam HarrisAudioreligion and politics
Chris McHughDoug Kruegerlink2003
Chris McHughTheodore Drangelink2003
Cliff KnechtleJeremy BeahanAudio2010
Cliffe KnechtleMichael NewdowVideo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Audio2003
Craig EvansBart EhrmanVideo, Audio2010
CybershyBoshkolink2001
Daleetwiploclink2009problem of evil
Daniel WallaceBart EhrmanAudiotextual reliability
Dave HuntChristopher DiCarloDVD2008
David Allen WhiteChristopher HitchensAudio2007impact of Christianity
David BartholomewVictor StengerAudio2010
David BerlinskiChristopher HitchensVideo2010
David BerlinskiJames UnderdownAudio2009
David DewolfEugenie ScottAudio2001creationism
David MargolisRichard Spencerlink .doc2006resurrectionbest!
David QuinnRichard Dawkinslink2006
David RobertsonAlister McBayAudio, Video2008
David RobertsonAndrew CopsonAudio2010
David RobertsonAdrian HayterAudio2009
David RobertsonAdrian HayterAudio2009(2nd debate)
David RobertsonMichael ShermerAudio2010
David RobertsonPaul OntonAudio2010
David RobertsonPeter CaveAudio2009
David Robertson and Richard MorganEd TurnerAudio2009
David WolpeChristopher HitchensVideo2010
David WolpeChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2007
David WolpeSam HarrisVideo, Audio
David WoodJohn LoftusVideo, Audio2006problem of evil
David WoodJohn LoftusAudioproblem of evil(2nd debate)
David WoodJohn LoftusVideo, Audio2010
Deepak Chopra and Jean HoustonMichael Shermer and Sam HarrisVideo2010
Denis AlexanderJanna LavinVideo 1, 2, Audio 1, 22007
Denis AlexanderPhilip KitcherAudio2007early Christianity
Denis AlexanderP.Z. MyersAudio2009neuroscience and religion
Denis AlexanderStephen LawAudio2010
Dennis PragerChristopher HitchensVideo
Dennis PragerSam Harrislink
Derek TidballGordon LiveseyAudio
Dinesh D'SouzaBart EhrmanAudio2009suffering
Dinesh D'SouzaChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2009
Dinesh D'SouzaChristopher HitchensAudio2009(second 2009 debate)
Dinesh D'SouzaChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2010(Notre Dame)
Dinesh D'SouzaChristopher Hitchenslink DVD, Audio2007
Dinesh D'SouzaDan BarkerVideo,Audio
Dinesh D'SouzaDan BarkerVideo, Audio2008
Dinesh D'SouzaDan BarkerVideo, Audio2009
Dinesh D'SouzaDaniel DennettVideo, Audio2007a review
Dinesh D'SouzaJohn LoftusVideo, Audio2010
Dinesh D'SouzaMichael ShermerVideo 1, 2, AudioIs Christianity good?
Dinesh D'SouzaMichael ShermerVideo2009Is Christianity good? (2nd debate)
Dinesh D'SouzaPeter SingerVideo, Audio2008God: Yes or no?
Dinesh D'SouzaPeter SingerVideo, Audio2008god and morality
Dinesh D'Souza and Dennis PragerChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2008
Dinesh D'Souza et. al.Stephen Landsburg et. al.VideoBible
Don JohnsonEdwin KaginAudio
Don JohnsonRobert PriceAudio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Don PattonJohn BlantonAudiocreationism
Doug GeivettJohn ShookVideo, Audio2009
Doug MillerJohn GeorgeVideo2003
Douglas GeivettEddie TabashDVD2007
Douglas JacobyMichael ShermerVideo, Audio2007
Douglas JonesKeith Parsons and Michael Martinlink1991
Douglas WilsonChristopher Hitchensbook2009
Douglas WilsonChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio, link2008
Douglas WilsonDan BarkerAudio
Douglas WilsonFarrell Tilllink
Douglas WilsonTheodore Drangelink1999
Duan GishKen Saladinlink1988creationism
Duane GishFrank Zindlerlink1990creationism
Dwight KnightRobert PriceVideo
Ed DoerrChristopher HitchensAudio
Edgar Andrews and othersRichard Dawkins and othersAudio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 91986creationism
EloiseKevinlink2008paganism
extinctionistwiploclink2004morality
Francis CollinsRichard DawkinsText2006
Francis Collins and Benjamin CarsonRichard Dawkins and Daniel DennettAudio2009
Frank TurekChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2008
Frank TurekChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2009
Frank TurekRichard CarrierAudioresurrection
Frederick CoplestonBertrand Russelllink1948
Friar PeterJohn WiltshireVideo
GakuseiDonMalachi151link2007historical Jesus
Gary HabermasAntony FlewVideo, Audio, book2003resurrection
Gary HabermasArif AhmedVideo, Audio2008resurrection
Gary HabermasKeith AugustineAudio 1, 2, 3
Gary HabermasKenneth HumphreysVideo, Audioresurrection
Gary HabermasSkepticsAudio 1, 2
Gary HabermasTim CallahanVideo 1, 2, Audio2005short
Gary Habermas and Mike LiconaRichard CarrierAudio
Gary Habermas and Mike LiconaRobert PriceAudio 1, 2, 32007resurrection
Gavin McGrathMarilyn MasonAudio
GeeKilljoylink2009
Gene CookAaron Kinneylink2005
Gene CookAnton BateyVideo
Gene CookDan BarkerAudio2005
Gene CookDavid CossAudio2005
Gene CookEdwin KaginAudio
Gene CookJames RandiAudio
Gene CookJohn LoftusAudio2006
Gene CookJosh Singer and Sye TenBruggencatAudio
Gene CookKeegan J. KjeldsenAudio2006
Gene CookLee BashamAudio 1, 2
Gene CookRay WallerAudio2005
Gene CookRob ManningAudio2008
Gene CookSye TenBruggencateAudio
Gene Cook and Bob MoreyRobert Price and Reggie FinleyAudio2005
Geoffrey SimmonsP.Z. MyersAudiocreationism
George PellDan BarkerVideo, Audio2010
Glenn PeoplesArif AhmedAudio2010
Greg BahnsenGeorge SmithAudio1991
Greg BahnsenGordon SteinVideo, Audio, Transcript
Greg BoydRobert PriceAudiohistorical Jesus
Greg ClarkeDan BarkerVideo
Greg KouklMichael Shermerlink
Gregorywiploclink2004
Hamza Andreas TzortzisEd BucknerVideo2010
Hamza Andreas TzortzisPeter CaveVideo2008islam
Hamza Tzortzis and Adam DeenBrian Layfield and Robert TeeVideo,Audio2008
Hans JacobseMatt DillahuntyVideo, Audio2010morality
Harry CallahanJadelink2004
Hassanain RajabaliDan BarkerVideo 1, 2, 3, Audio2003
Hassanain Rajabali and Michael CoreyDan Barker and Richard CarrierVideo, DVD, Audio2009
Henry WaceThomas Huxleybook1888
Howard SternHermant MethaAudio2006
Hugh HewittSam HarrisVideoshort
Hugh RossVictor StengerAudio 1, 2
Imran AijazBill Cookelink2002
J.P. HoldingAmerican Atheistslink2008historical Jesus
J.P. HoldingJohn Armstronglink2007
J.P. Holdingskepticbudlink2003
J.P. Holdingskepticbudlink2003miracles(2nd debate)
J.P. MorelandClancy MartinVideo, Audio2005resurrection
J.P. MorelandKai Nielsenbook1993
J.P.HoldingJohn Powelllink2003
Jake O'ConnellRichard Carrierlink2008resurrection
James D. BalesWoolsey Tellerbook1947
James WhiteAnn McKinneyAudio
James WhiteBart EhrmanVideo, linktextual reliabilitybest!
James WhiteBrian LynchAudio
James WhiteDan BarkerVideo, Audio1986
James WhiteRobert PriceVideo2010historical jesus
JasonSylaslink2003creationism
Jason GastrichDan BarkerAudio
Jason GastrichDoug KruegerAudio
Jason GastrichDoug KruegerAudio(2nd debate)
Jason GastrichDoug Kruegerlink2005(3rd debate)
Jason GastrichEddie TabashAudio
Jason GastrichEddie TabashDVD, Audio2007(2nd debate)
Jason GastrichFarrell Tilllink2003
Jason GastrichFrancois Tremblaylink2004morality
Jason GastrichJohnny Skepticlink2005resurrection
Jason GastrichJon Pomnitzlink2004historical Jesus
Jason GastrichReggie FinleyAudio
Jason GastrichSean McHughlink2004resurrection
Jason GastrichStan KohlsAudio
Jason GastrichStephen GeddeslinkBible
Jay RichardsChristopher HitchensDVD, Audio2008
Jean Bethke Elshtain and othersSusan Jacoby and othersDVD, Audio, link2007Is America too damn religious?
Jeffrey SchwartzMichael ShermerVideo2004
Jerome GroopmanMichael Shermerlink2008science and religion
Jerry Don BauerFedmahn Kassadlink2003creationism
Jerry McDonaldradical_logiclink2009
Jim CookArnold Guminskilinkthe moral argument
Jim LawsRichard SchoenigVideoAudio
Joanna Collicut McGrathMartyn FrameAudio2010
Joel BootChristopher DiCarloVideo,Audio2009
Joel ReifEddie TabashVideo 1, 2, Audio2007
John FerrerZachary MooreAudio
John FrameMichael Martinlink1996
John HaldaneChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio
John HaldaneJ.J.C. Smartbook1996
John HarePeter SingerVideo, Audio2009morality
John KosterFrank Zindlerlink1990
John LennoxChristopher HitchensDVD2008
John LennoxChristopher HitchensDVD2009
John LennoxMichael ShermerVideo, Audio
John LennoxRichard DawkinsVideo, DVD, Audio
John LennoxRichard DawkinsAudio2008Oxford Museum
John LennoxRichard DawkinsAudio2008Oxford followup
John Lennox and othersVictor Stenger and othersVideo, Audio
John MorrisFrank Zindlerlink1989Noah's flood
John Onaiyekan and Anne WiddencombeChristopher Hitchens and Stephen FryVideo, Audio2009Is the Catholic Church good?
John PendletonJames BowerVideo, Audio2006resurrection
John RankinDan BarkerAudio2006
John RankinRobert Pricelink1997historical Jesus
John TancockB StrongAudio2010
John TwiseltonSteven Carrlink2009
John Warwick MontgomeryThomas J.J. Altizerbook1967
Jonathan WellsMassimo PigliucciVideo, linkintelligent design
Jonathan WellsMichael ShermerVideo, Audio2006creationism
JP HoldingKen HumphreysAudio2009did Jesus exist?
Julia Neuberger and othersRichard Dawkins and othersVideo
Justin BrierlyReggie FinleyAudio
Kabane52ENDH8link2005resurrection
Kabane52hamandcheeseLink2008
Kabane52Sea of Redlink2007
Karl GibersonMichael ShermerVideo, Audio
Karl KeatingBart BrewerAudio
Karl KeatingBill JacksonAudio
Karl KeatingPeter RuckmanAudio
Ken HamEugenie ScottAudio
Ken HammJames LisleVideo, Audio
Kenneth MillerChristopher Hitchenslink2008science and religion
Kent HovindFarrell TillAudio 1, 2
Kent HovindHugh RossAudiocreationism
Kent HovindHugh RossVideocreationism
Kent HovindJames PaulsonVideo, DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindJayman DickDVDcreationism
Kent HovindJim HoffmanVideocreationism
Kent HovindJim Strayer and othersVideo DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindJohn CallahanAudiocreationism
Kent HovindKaren Barteltlink DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindMark HartmanDVDcreationism
Kent HovindMassimo Pigliuccilink DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindMassimo PigliucciAudiocreationism (2nd debate)
Kent HovindMatthew RainbowVideo, DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindMichael Shermerlink DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindPaul HilpmanDVDcreationism
Kent HovindReggie FinleyAudiocreationism
Kent HovindRichard WeisenbergDVDcreationism
Kent HovindRobyn RichardsonDVDcreationism
Kent HovindRobert TriversDVDcreationism
Kent HovindRobert TriversDVDcreationism(2nd debate)
Kent HovindStephen MeyersVideo, Audiocreationism
Kent HovindTerry Prewittlink DVD, Audiocreationism
Kent Hovind and Kyle FrazierMichael Shermerlink DVD, Audiocreationism
King LouieVinnielink2001
King of MenManhattanProjectlink2005
Kirk Cameron
and Ray Comfort
Rational Response SquadVideo, Audio2007hilarious
Kirk DurstonJeffrey NoonanVideo, Audio2009
Kirk DurstonJeffrey ShallitVideo, Audio2007science and religion
Kris Wold vs. Christian Apologetics of CarolinaDon ExodusVideo
Kyle ButtDan BarkerVideo, Audio2009
Larry TauntonChristopher HitchensVideo,Audio
Laurence TisdallJason WilesVideo, Audio2007creationism
llamaluvrTony Beaulink2007resurrection
Long Winded Foolwiploclink2004problem of evil
Lorenzo AlbaceteChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2008science and religion
Madeline BuntingRichard DawkinsAudio
Majestykcradylink2009kalam cosmological argument
Marianne TalbotStephen LawAudio2009
Mariano GrinbankMichael SizerVideo2010morality and god
Mark HausamDavid KellerVideo, Audio2007
Mark RobertsChristopher HitchensAudio
Martin Saunders and Anthony McRoyPhilip PullmanAudio
Marvin OlaskyChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2007
Matt SlickChadElinkscroll down to Atheism and Morality Second Debate
Matt SlickDan BarkerAudio
Matt SlickDerek SansoneAudio
Matt SlickEddie TabashVideo, Audio
Matt SlickEdwin KaginVideo, Audio2008
Matt SlickMark BonocoreAudio
Matt SlickMatt Dillahunty and othersVideo2009
Matt SlickReggie FinleyAudio
Matt SlickTinyCrabbieThingielink
Matthew FlannaganRay BradleyAudio, link2010
Meic PearseEd TurnerAudioIs Christianity good?
MetacrockGurderLink2001
Michael BeheKeith FoxAudio2010intelligent design
Michael BeheLawrence Krauslink2005
Michael BeheMichael ReissAudio2005short
Michael BeheStephen BarrAudio2010evolution
Michael BeheVincent CassoneAudiocreationism
Michael Behe and othersKenneth Miller and otherslink2005debater is not an atheist
Michael BirdJames CrossleyAudio2009historical Jesus
Michael BirdJames CrossleyAudiohistorical Jesus (2nd debate)
Michael BrownBart EhrmanAudio2010
Michael HornerDan Barkerlink1996
Michael HornerFarrell Tilllink1995resurrection
Michael NovakHeather MacDonaldVideo, Audio, Link
Michael PooleRichard Dawkinslink
Michael SaywardSarah TinkerAudiovirgin birth
Mike LiconaBart EhrmanVideo, Audio2008resurrection
Mike LiconaBart EhrmanVideo, Audio2009resurrection
Mike LiconaDan BarkerVideo, Audio2003resurrection
Mike LiconaElaine PagelsVideo, Audio2005gnostic gospelsshort
Mike LiconaElaine PagelsAudiohistorical Jesus
Mike LiconaLuke MuehlhauserAudio2009resurrection
Mike LiconaRichard Carrierlink DVD, Audio2004resurrectionbest!
Mike LiconaRichard CarrierVideo, Audio2010resurrection
Mike PagetAlan ConradiAudio, Video2010
Mike RiddleMike YellowAudio 1, 2creationism
N.T. WrightBart EhrmanAudio, linkproblem of evil
N.T. WrightJohn Dominic CrossanAudio, book2006resurrection
Nadir AhmedDenis GironVideo 1, 2
Nadir ahmedRichard CarrierAudioscience and religion
Nicholas BealeColin Howsonlink1998
Nicholas BealeJulian BagginiAudio2009
Nick SpencerRobert StovoldAudio2009
Nigel DesboroughMichael MarsdenAudioAlpha course
Norman GeislerFarrell Tilllink1994resurrection
Norman GeislerPaul KurtzAudio
Norton and othersEmerypodcast
notapadawanTysixtuslink2007
O. Gerald TriggKeith Parsonstape2001
P-DunnNickcopernicuslink
Paul CopanMichael Martin1 2 3 42000
Paul HerrickSamuel PolingVideo, Audio2007
Paul ManataDan BarkerAudio
Paul ManataDerek SansoneAudio
Paul NelsonKenneth MillerAudiodebater is not an atheist
Paul NelsonNiall ShanksAudio2005intelligent design
Paul NelsonRonald NumbersVideo, Audio2009
Paul NelsonSahotra SarkarVideo, Audio2006creationism
Perry MarshallPeter HeartyAudio2009
Pete BocchinoEd BucknerAudio2009
Peter HitchensAdam RutherfordAudio2010
Peter HitchensChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2007only partly about religion
Peter KreeftMichael TooleyVideo, Audio2009
Peter MayJohn LoftusAudio
Peter PayneDan BarkerAudio 1, 22005
Peter WilliamsAndrew CopsonAudio
Peter WilliamsBart EhrmanAudiotextual reliability
Peter WilliamsJoan KonnerAudio2009
Peter WilliamsPeter CaveAudio
Peter YoungrenDan BarkerVideo, DVD, Audio2003
Phil FernandesDan BarkerAudio 1, 2, 3, 42000
Phil FernandesEddie TabashAudio
Phil FernandesElliot RatzmanVideo, Audio
Phil FernandesJeffrey Jay LowderVideo, Audio1999
Phil FernandesJim CorbettAudio
Phil FernandesMichael Martinlink1997
Phil FernandesPeter JohnAudio 1, 2
Phil FernandesReggie FinleyAudio
Phil FernandesRobert PriceAudio
PhilAlAtheistArchonlink2003
Philip JohnsonKenneth Millerlink1996debater is not an atheist
Philip JohnsonWill ProvineVideo, Audio, link1994creationism
Phillip Johnson and othersKenneth Miller and othersVideo, Audio, link pdf debater is not an atheist
PhilosophickleChaoslord2004link2006
Philosophickus RexENeGMAlink2006
PoodleLovinPessimistTimothy Muselink2004
punkforchristDante Alighierilink2007
punkforchristSean McHughlink2008resurrection
punkforchristwiploclink2007
punkforchristwiploclink2007problem of evil
punkforchristwiploclink2008
punkforchristwiploclink2006
Rabbit JeretAmerican Atheistslink2008
RaviZachariasFanwiploc and Tsurmonlink2004
Ray ComfortRon BarrierAudio
Ray ComfortSam Tyler-SmithVideo
Ray ComfortThunderf00tVideo2009
RazorKissMitchLeblanclink2009
Reza AslanSam HarrisVideo, Audio
rhutchinDlx2link2006
Richard BauckhamJames CrossleyAudio 1, 22009are the gospels eyewitness accounts
Richard BauckhamJames CrossleyAudio2009nature of Jesus
Richard Harris and Charles MooreRichard Dawkins and A.C. GraylingVideo, Audio2009Is atheism the new fundamentalism?
Richard HaysBart EhrmanAudioissues raised by The Da Vinci Code
Richard MiltonJim Foleylink1997creationism
Richard Morgan and Todd PitnerGordon LiveseyAudio2010
Richard SwinburneBart EhrmanAudioproblem of evil
Richard WeikartHector AvalosAudioDarwinism and Nazism
Rick JamesJoe ZameckiVideo, Audio
Rick WarrenSam Harrislink2007
Ridingthescreequiplink2006
Robert AllenMassimo PigliucciAudio2007creationism
Robert AudiNicholas Wolterstorffbook1996religion and politics
Robert KoonsBrian Holtzlink
RobertLWVinnielink2001Bible
Roger ForsterGordon LiveseyAudio
Russell CowburnLewis WolpertVideo, Audio2009
Russell CowburnLewis WolpertAudio2009(2nd debate)
Russell DiSilvestroMatt McCormickVideo2010
Russell DiSilvestroMatt McCormickVideo2010miracles and salem witch trials
Russell DiSilvestroMatt McCormickVideo2010miracles and lourdes and lazarus
Russell DiSilvestroMatt McCormickVideo2010god and miracles
Scott WilkinsonChristopher DiCarlo1 2 3 4
Sean McDowellJim Corbett1 2, Audio2010morality
seebsepepkelink2006
seebswiploclink2003problem of evil
severalRobert Ingersolllink1885short debates
severalSteven Carrlink7 short debates
Shabir AllyChristopher DiCarloVideo
Shabir AllyPeter AtkinsVideo, Audio
Shandon GuthrieDaniel Adamslink1997
Shandon GuthrieDoug KruegerAudio2005
Shandon GuthrieMitch Hodgelink2008
Shandon GuthrieReggie FinleyAudio
Sharif Abu LaithMike O'DonnellVideo, Audio
Shmuley BoteachChristopher HitchensVideo, Audio2008
Shmuley Boteach and othersChristopher Hitchens and othersVideo, Audio2009
Shmuley Boteach and othersRichard Dawkins and othersAudio
Siewert OholmChrister SturmarkVideo2008morality
singer645Jim Lazaruslink2005
Smith_87Silent Davelink2005
SpacefoetusMikeWrightlink2008
Spl_cadetJuliodlink2007
Stephen MeyerKenneth Miller and Lawrence KraussAudiodebater is not an atheist
Stephen MeyerMichael RuseVideo 1, 2, Audio 1, 2, link2006intelligent design
Stephen MeyerMichael ShermerVideo 1, 2, Audio2005short
Stephen MeyerPeter AtkinsAudio2010
Stephen MeyerPeter WardAudio, link2005creationism
Stephen MeyerPeter WardVideo, Audio2006creationism
Stephen Meyer and Richard SternbergDonald Prothero and Michael ShermerAudio2009
Steve FullerThomas DixonAudio2010
Steve Fuller and Alex HochuliConway Morris and David PerksVideo, Audio
Stewart Goetz and Charles TaliaferroTom Clarklinknaturalism
StumpjumperVinnielink2005science and religion
TAG-your it!Pervylink2006
Terry L. MietheAntony Flewbook1991
the_cavewiploclink2001problem of evil
Thomas WarrenAntony FlewAudio, Video19768 hours!
Tim LeiszChris HallquistAudio
Timothy JacksonChristopher HitchensVideo
Timothy KellerNorman BacracAudio2009
TisthammerwGeorge Hathawaylink2009reverse-role debate
Tisthammerwwiploclink2009
Tisthammerwwiploclink2009
Todd FrielDan BarkerAudio2006
Todd FrielEddie TabashVideo 1, 2, Audio2007
Tom PriceBarry DukeAudio2009Does religion make people unhappy?
Tom WanchickRichard Carrierlink2006best!
Tom WoodwardPeter HeartyAudiocreationism
Tony BlairChristopher HitchensVideo, link2010
Tony CostaKenneth HumphreysAudio
Vincent CheungDerek Sansonelink
Vinoth RamachandraPhilip KitcherVideo 1, 2, Audio 1, 22006science and religion
Walter MartinHugh SchonfieldAudiohistorical Jesus
Walter MartinMadalyn Murray O'HairAudio1968
whetstoneSilent Davelink2006
Will Sjorensenwiploclink2009problem of evil
William DembskiChristopher HitchensVideo,Audio2010
William DembskiEugenie ScottAudio, linkcreationism
William DembskiLewis WolpertAudio2009
William DembskiMichael RuseVideo, Audio2005short
William DembskiNiall ShanksVideo2004
William DemskiLee SilverAudiocreationism
William DemskiMichael ShermerAudio
William HarrisIrwin Tessmanlink2001prayer
William Lane CraigAndrew PyleDVD2007
William Lane CraigAntony FlewAudio, Video, Book1998Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigAustin DaceyVideo, Audio2004Does God Exist?best!
William Lane CraigAustin DaceyAudio2005best!
William Lane CraigBart EhrmanVideo, Audio, link pdf2006resurrection
William Lane CraigBill CookeVideo, Audio2008
William Lane CraigBrian EdwardsAudio
William Lane CraigBrian EdwardsAudio(2nd debate)
William Lane CraigChristopher DiCarloVideo,Audio2009
William Lane CraigChristopher HitchensDVD2009
William Lane CraigCorey Washingtonlink1995Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigDouglas Jessephlink1996Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigEddie TabashVideo, Audio1999Secular Humanism vs Christianity
William Lane CraigEdwin Curleylink1998Does the Christian God Exisit?
William Lane CraigEric DaytonAudioproblem of evil
William Lane CraigFrancisco AyalaVideo 1, 2, 3, 4, Audio"intelligent design
William Lane CraigFrank ZindlerVideo, Audio1993Atheism vs Christianity
William Lane CraigGarrett HardinAudioChristianity vs Scientific Naturalism
William Lane CraigGerd LudermannAudio1997resurrection
William Lane CraigGerd LudermannAudio2002resurrection
William Lane CraigGeorge WilliamsonVideo, Audio2009resurrection
William Lane CraigGeorge WilliamsonAudioradio debate
William Lane CraigGreg CavinAudio1995resurrection
William Lane CraigHector AvalosAudio2004resurrection
William Lane CraigHenry MorgentalerAudio
William Lane CraigIngmar Perssonlink1999
William Lane CraigJames Robert BrownAudio2009
William Lane CraigJames CrossleyVideo, Audio2007resurrection
William Lane CraigJohn Dominic CrossanAudio, book1995historical Jesus
William Lane CraigJohn ShookVideo, Audio, link2008Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigJohn Shelby SpongDVD, Video, Audio2005resurrection
William Lane CraigKai Nielsenlink1991Morality and problem of evil
William Lane CraigKeith ParsonsAudio1998Why I am/am not a Christian
William Lane CraigLewis WolpertVideo, Audio2007
William Lane CraigLouise AntonyVideo 1, 2, Audio 1, 22008morality
William Lane CraigMarcus BorgAudioresurrection
William Lane CraigMassimo PigliucciAudio, link1995Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigMassimo PigliucciTranscript1998Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigMichael PaytonnVideo, Audio2009
William Lane CraigMichael Tooleylink1994Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigMike BegonDVD2007
William Lane CraigPeter AtkinsVideo, Audio1998
William Lane CraigPaul DraperAudio1997Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigPaul KurtzVideo, Audio, book2001morality
William Lane CraigPeter AtkinsAudio, Video1998Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigPeter SlezakVideo, Audio2002Atheism vs Christianity
William Lane CraigQuentin Smithlink1996Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigQuentin Smithlink2003Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigRay BradleyAudio, link1994morality and hellbest!
William Lane CraigRichard CarrierVideo, Audio2005short
William Lane CraigRichard CarrierVideo, Audio2009
William Lane CraigRichard Taylorlink1993morality
William Lane CraigRobert (Greg) CavinAudio1995resurrectiontwin theory debate
William Lane CraigRobert PriceAudio1999resurrection
William Lane CraigRon BarrierAudio2000Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigRonald de SouzaVideo, Audio2009
William Lane CraigRoy HooverAudio2008resurrection
William Lane CraigShabir AllyAudio, Video2002resurrection
William Lane CraigShabir AllyAudio2002Who is the real Jesus?
William Lane CraigShelly KaganVideo, Audio2009
William Lane CraigTheodore DrangeVideo, Audio1997Does God Exist?
William Lane CraigTorbjorn TannsjoAudio2001morality
William Lane CraigVictor StengerVideo, Audio2003Does God Exist?best!
William Lane CraigWalter Sinnott-ArmstrongAudio1999problem of evil
William Lane CraigWalter Sinnott-Armstrongbook2003
William Lane Craig and Alvin PlantingaQuentin Smith and Richard GaleAudio, Video2004
William Lane Craig and othersChristopher HitchensVideo,Audio2009
William Lane Craig et. al.Richard Dawkins et. al.Video, Audio2010panel
William PhilipsMichael ShermerVideo, Audioscience and religion
William PhilipsSteven Pinkerlink2008
William Lane CraigGeorge Williamsonaudio, video2011Does God Exist?
Dinesh D’SouzaDan BarkerLink, Video, Audio2011 March 7Is Religion the Problem?University of California, San Diego, CA
Randy MartinEddie TabashVideo2011Does God Exist?Bakersfield, CA
John LennoxPeter AtkinsVideo
Michael LiconaStephen PattersonAudio2010 SpringDid Jesus Rise from the Dead?FSU
William Lane CraigSam HarrisAudio2011 April 7Is Good From God?University of Notre Dame
William Lane CraigLawrence KraussAudio2011 March 30Is There Evidence for God?NC State
Joe BootClare RowsonAudio2010 January 30Does God Exist?
Peter S. WilliamsCarl StecherLink2001-2002God Questions
William Lane Craig, Douglas Geivett, and Rabbi David WolpeRichard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, and Matt Ridley Audio, AudioDoes the Universe Have a Purpose?
Douglas JacobyRobert BrotherusAudio, Audio2011Is Christianity Rational?Helsinki
William Lane CraigPeter MillicanAudio2011Does God Exist?Reasonable Faith tour
William Lane CraigMichael TooleyAudio, Video2010Is God Real?University of North Carolina, Charlotte
William Lane CraigStephen LawAudio2011Does God Exist?Reasonable Faith tour
Greg KouklJohn BakerAudio, Video2009Do Moral Truths Exist?Faith Beyond Belief and the University of Calgary Freethinkers
William Lane CraigHerb SilvermanAudio, Video2010Does God Exist?University of North Carolina Wilmington
William Lane CraigAC GraylingAudio2005Does the existence of evil and suffering in the world preclude the existence of the Christian God?Oxford Union
Dinesh D'SouzaBart EhrmanAudio, Video2010Theodicy, God and SufferingGordon College
Mary Jo SharpEhteshaam GulamVideo2009Did Jesus Rise From the Dead?
Dinesh D’Souza and David WolpeA.C. Grayling & Matthew ChapmanVideo2011The World Would Be Better Off Without Religion
Gary HabermasGeoff CamposAudio2011Is it rational to believe in miracles?
Lenny EspositoRichard Carrier Audio2012 May 23Does God exists?University of California, Riverside
Hugh RossLewis WolpertAudio2012 Evidence for God Premier radio
William Lane CraigMike BegonAudio, Video2007Reasonable Faith Tour
Calum MillerPeter AtkinsVideo2012Does God Exist?Oxford
William Lane CraigKlemens KappelAudio2012Does God Exist

223 Responses to Christian vs Atheist Debates

  1. Cecil says:

    @Adam: ” I don’t believe God ever directly said in the Bible that he loved the world.”

    God doesn’t have to say that.
    If someone saved a homeless person from drowning, wrapped him with his coat and watched over him till help came, he was merely doing what was expected of him. But, supposing he also took the person home, dressed his wounds, and housed and fed him until he fully recovered. It would’ve proved his love of neighbour. Compare Luke 10:29-37

    You also added: “The Apostle John said it for him indirectly in John 3:16″
    Supposing the innkeeper told the homeless person: “The person who saved surely loves the helpless.”
    Would it be proper for the person to question that which was evident? John again explains:
    “In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world,
    that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God,
    but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:9, 10)

    Personally, I reckon you should count yourself lucky and very grateful that God allows you to live out your life, even should you blaspheme him. BTW, his son also said that – not God himself. (Matt. 12:30-32)
    Please take special note of the second portion of verse 32. It’s God’s holy spirit which draws people to him. (John 6:44)
    According to that scripture, only those who react positively to the calling will be saved.

    As for the rest who ignore, they’ll get what they already believe happens to them when they die.
    IE: Nothing more than the memory of them remaining in those they’ve left behind.

  2. Weismonger says:

    I still don’t “get it.”

    There are questions and attempted discussions about Moses, the Ark, Jesus, etc. and yet there is not a shred of proof of any kind that any of these topics existed anymore than the story of Cinderella and her glass slipper. Its very, very bizarre.

  3. Adam J Read says:

    Hi Cecil,

    A while ago, I asked that you help me define the difference between a true blasphemy…and a false blasphemy, but perhaps in the flood of conversation I have posted here, that got lost in the mix. My concern in regards to the term blasphemy is that it tends to resemble the same pattern as denial, and I don’t know how to get past that.

    For what its worth, I will disclose to you that I have begun attempting to contact members of the Jewish community as well, certainly in light of all the conversations you and I have been having. My inability to make a serious impression on you in regards to the problems that I have found in the scriptures warrants an attempt to notify the Jews that another storm may be brewing on the horizon for them.

    Here’s the big issue that remains unattended in the structure of fundamental Christianity:

    June 22, you wrote this:

    “Jesus and his angelic military force will very soon destroy Satan and all the wicked, agnostic and atheists. The world will be cleansed, and ready to house those whom Jesus himself decides to resurrect.” I tried to point out that the second sentence looks a great deal like a statement of supremacy, but you didn’t respond to that.

    So, if you are correct, Cecil….and Jesus is truly coming back on his White Horse, does this not also include another Holocaust for the non-messianic Jews? If I am not mistaken, they too would fall under the category of “wicked, agnostic, and atheists” that don’t believe in Jesus.

    This seems to suggest that the Black Widow Spider of Christianity is waiting once again to emerge. This time, it will attack everyone that disagrees with it…which would also include the nation of Israel, doesn’t it? Somehow, that strategy doesn’t seem too prudent to me, especially since these are the folks that gave you your religion to begin with.

    How much rope do you want me to give you here? You are either going to hang yourself…or literally get caught in your own web. You are pushing the Proportional Jeopardy of Elitism to a new level, Cecil, as the harder you try to define yourself as elite, the more likely you are to make yourself…and Christianity as a whole…appear as the world’s greatest disorder.

    Are you sure you want to keep going on this? I know you are very busy attending to your wife, and as I have said before, that is one of the things I respect greatly about you. I don’t know too many people that can maintain a 20 hour schedule. Please take some time off if you’d like to reconsider some of your thoughts.

    Respectfully,

    Adam

  4. Cecil says:

    @Adam “A while ago, I asked…help me define the difference between a true blasphemy…and a false blasphemy…”

    Perhaps at the time it was irrelevant to a section I replied on.
    I tried to look it up, but all older posts have been removed. ????

    I also addressed two messages to you this morning, and these were also removed for some reason.
    Perhaps it coincided with the regular cleanup that goes on here often lately.

    The written language of the original text was Greek, and the word blasphemia indicated defamatory or abusive
    speech. In use in modern English means slanderous speech directed at God only. In South Africa it’s a crime to use what is termed as ‘Hate speech’ against an individual or his race. It’s a political thing. I guess.

    Acts 18:5,6 (NKJV) says that Jews and Greeks accused Paul as having ‘blasphemed’ when they did not
    understand the Christian faith that Paul and Silas were teaching. So does the Authorised Version.
    Later translations say ‘slander, abusive talk, abusive speech, reviled, defamed, spoken of abusively,
    and similar expressions.

    But I’ve never yet heard anyone else mention ‘False blasphemy’ Perhaps some think it applies to situations
    Where the word blasphemy was used against people and not god, as in Act 18:6 (NKJV)

  5. Adam J. Read says:

    Hi Cecil,

    I wish I could give you a break from your tremendous schedule….although I’m not sure if you’d want to swap for raising four rowdy kids right now :). You and I are both under a great deal of stress, and while our debates have been lengthy, I have come to appreciate your unending fervor and dedication to these conversations tremendously. Pastors…rabbis…authors…and the other folks with initials after their names are far too busy doing “important things” to engage at this level. So, before I continue, let me just say thanks for being here.

    I wrote to my birth mom yesterday and tried to explain a little of what has been going on here between mostly just you and I. She is not a Christian, but I think she’s starting to realize exactly what happened when I went to live with my dad when I was six. It’s only within the last year that I have come to terms with how deep the damage goes. There are patterns in my behavior that are consistent with psychological trauma, which is why being able to write in front of my computer instead of face to face has been so therapeutic.

    I told my mom that my conversations with you allowed me to cycle through enough of the things in my head to get to a point where I could find closure. Sequentially, it was also very therapeutic for me to engage Weismonger after our discussion so I could prove to myself that I wouldn’t just take the side of the Atheists because I had issues with religion. As I have said before, I am not here to win a debate….I’m here to solve problems. The difference between the two is significant.

    My hyper-vigilance in trying to bring up all these deeper issues is indicative of trauma as well. That’s why I can’t harbor resentment against the Jews…or Christians in general…because I know what happens at the personal, psychological, and even visceral level when the trauma doesn’t ever stop. If I were to diagnose myself, I would say that I probably have a form of PTSD that isn’t on the books yet…but maybe I mentioned that a while ago. The word “Post” in PTSD is inaccurate…because it means that the trauma is in the past, and not currently ongoing. I would diagnose what I have as Persistent Traumatic Stress Disorder, and perhaps the designation of PTSD II might be introduced here.

    My symptoms are consistent with the enormous stress I see in the characters and narrative of the Bible. Seamus condemned me for projecting my own mental health experience onto the Bible, but I would challenge that with a few strategic questions:

    1) How often do the psychologists and psychiatrists that people go to and spend tons of money on have actual real world experience navigating their own mental health…or do they just get into this trade because they like pointing out how weird everyone else is?

    2) How many of them have been labeled as bipolar…schizophrenic…insane….or in need of medication themselves and understand socially and emotionally what the downstream effects of that are? If they are not very careful, they may run the risk of presenting modern psychology as an industry that lacks empathy which then starts to resemble sociopathy. Luckily, many in the industry have started to turn their ship and be much less authoritative…and much more understanding. Friendship evangelism parallels friendship psychology, yet the authority of both lingers in their back pocket in case they feel the need to use it. I’m not entirely comfortable with that at all.

    3) How many of them see the direct connection between being labeled as a “disorder” by a psychiatrist and being labeled a “sinner” when they go to church? I have said before that psychology could be described as the twin brother of western religion.

    4) How many of them have come to the realization that their version of normal is often more dysfunctional than those people that they try and treat….yet they retain their authority and credentials nonetheless.

    But you can’t ask them those kinds of questions to them….because THEY think they are the authorities….just like the leaders of the church think that they too are the authorities on the unknown. What’s funny is that while so many pastors get up and preach every Sunday and act like authorities, it only takes one brief email for them to come back and admit that they aren’t true “scholars” of the text. What that means exactly, I’m not entirely sure.

    So the question that I have for both psychology and religion is this: Where do they come up with the assertion that their version of normal is superior to anyone else’s? Just because there are more of them out there doesn’t make their line of logic superior to another. Neither of them will provide a money back guarantee on their services….or even a pro-rated warranty. Yet they love to ask for money over and over and over again. Incidentally, I got very bored with our marriage counselor (as did my wife), so we stopped going.

    Religion and psychology need to spend some time in the construction industry and realize what it means to put their name behind a product or service. They need to understand that with rights….comes responsibilities and ownership. But you know what phrase they would use if you asked them to do that?

    Blasphemy.

    Now…when you get a chance to have a break (I’d make you dinner if I could)…. let’s talk about the difference between true blasphemy and false blasphemy again. Let’s start with the assumption that someone from a different religion is trying to convert you, Cecil. If you tried to tell them something that they said was blasphemous, help me understand the difference between simply acquiescing to their presumed authority….and using your own value system to deny the charge?

    Thanks,

    Adam

  6. Adam J. Read says:

    By the way,

    I appreciate your compliments about me being wise the other day, but I’m nervous that you will then turn around and call me a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” later on.

    I probably could have become another Wolf, just so you know….but I chose not to.

    Adam

  7. Adam J. Read says:

    To Jillian….(or Julian???)

    I got the update email that says you made a post, but I’m guessing your post got inserted on the last page of comments after it was approved by the moderator. Since it doesn’t seem to be available for us to see anymore…and since I’m documenting this conversation off site, I will insert your post here:

    “Author: julian
    Comment:
    hello there , i’m Jillian, we don’t need proof to believe in God, its our faith, our faith of believing in GOD will give us reward in our patience and obedience to him when he comes back, final judgement.”

    I guess my response might be something like this:

    I’m not adverse to anyone using an abstract story line to aid a culture in its desire to become a moral society. That is in fact what religions are in general. Educators use social stories for students to use in this way, and even children’s books like the Berenstain Bears really bring this down to a level kids can understand. Since my wife is a huge fan of the comic strip “For Better or For Worse,” all of my kids that are reading age will pour through her books constantly…absorbing the characters and silly short stories of the life of a mom raising her kids.

    But when people use the term “God,” at least in this country and they claim that the Bible is the only moral standard to live by, they sign on to a pretty huge and very detailed story line. What I have been trying to tell Cecil is that there are some real problems that get Christians (and Jews) into trouble unnecessarily, and unless we diagnose what really going on, we won’t be able to extract the problems from the good things in it.

    I think the Bible can easily be used as one version of a moral standard, but it would make a whole lot more sense if we placed it in a form, poured plaster of Paris over the top of it so that all of the voids and cracks are filled in, and then removed the plaster form to see what’s missing from it. Being able to compare the two images would allow humanity to make enormous advances in both psychology and theology.

    For me, the most important things missing from this text are a woman’s perspective, maternal instinct, and an understanding and deep appreciation of the minds of children. So, to suggest that this deity is all-knowing, yet completely lacking in these critical areas makes the text a very low standard in my opinion.

    Omniscience cannot be claimed if it is not earned.

  8. Cecil says:

    @Adam “If…something that they said was blasphemous, help me understand…to deny the charge?

    Quite simple. Ignorant people say all kinds of stupid things. I expect these. Too many religions result in too many
    stupid ideas about God to clear up. Have you heard the song “Little kid sister of mine”? As an example, listen to it:
    http://www.classic-country-song-lyrics.com/thatlittlekidsisterofminelyricschords.html

    One person I met had cursed God for taking his only child, a daughter. He refused to discuss, but his wife listened,
    and I often thereafter saw her taking lonely walks along the beach. (It was heart breaking)
    Perhaps the walks gave her privacy to reflect. I then prepared lengthy notes explain things, which I kept in my car.
    I gave her these one day, and more later. Eventually her appearance changed from the gloominess.
    She probably appreciated having closure on the matter. I never saw her again a month later.

    Can you imagine the damage a psychiatrist may have caused. In most cases even if these are indeed ‘Christian’
    it’s nominal only. Had they studied the Bible themselves, and not merely acceptrd whatever their ministers say,
    they would have confronted their so called ‘Most reverend holy man of God’ with what the Bible really teaches.
    In fact, most nominal Christians fear their priest, parson, minister, padre, etc., more that God himself.
    It’s that’s fear of man we battle to overcome. Even the Apostle Peter after spending over three years walking]\
    with Jesus, hearing him and seeing all his miracles, succumbed: (Luke 22:54-62) He survived.
    Others will never: (Isaiah 51:12) (Psalm 56:11)

  9. Cecil says:

    Hi Adam,
    I’ll leave Jillian to you in the meanwhile. Perhaps she doesn’t need me at this stage.
    She may have been reading these posts for some time.
    Anyhow, here’s a little Joke you can show ladies who also have the name Jillian:

    Hold up your left hand with palm facing them, and ask her: “Who is this person?”
    Let them look and think for a while until they ask.

    Keep your left hand in that position.
    Use your right hand forefinger and point to the top of the index finger.
    Move it down and around to the tip of the thumb and say, “J”
    Point to the middle finger and say that’s “I”
    Point in to the ring finger, then to the little finger, and say that’s, “LL”
    It’s good to put a little (not too much) humour in discussions should tensions arise. It works.

  10. Adam J. Read says:

    Good morning/afternoon Cecil.

    I don’t doubt how comforting your words were to the woman that had lost her daughter. Just as we go to a doctor to understand a story line of how we can prevent getting sick through healthy diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc., I am quite aware that many of the lessons that can emerge from the stories in the Bible can and have been incredibly meaningful to people. But if we can put the stones aimed at blasphemy down for a moment, I would like to present a very personal point of view that the church will not allow within its walls.

    If I can be completely honest, Cecil, I simply need a better example than Jesus to follow. It was okay when I was single and had nothing to lose but my own life, I suppose, but He doesn’t model the things I need a mature man to model. Unlike Him, I do not have the ability to push my views onto the world until someone kills me so I can then call my life a “miraculous success and gift to the world.” We can only sacrifice our lives for something once, and at present, I am not comfortable with leaving my wife and four (going on five) children to pick up the pieces and carry on. If you will, please allow me to show you what I do need to see.

    Many times throughout the Text, the Authors make use of the word “bride” in reference to the church. The Apostle John seems to like this analogy a great deal, but there are other incidences as well. http://www.openbible.info/topics/the_bride_of_christ

    When that analogy is used, it invites and even warrants a closer look at what being a husband really means, and I can confidently say that I have 16 years more experience than Jesus has thus far in being a husband and I have 10 more years experience than he did in being an earthly dad. This is not meant to be blasphemy….but a simple fact based on the narrative presented in the Text.

    On Christmas Eve last year, I wrote a piece entitled, “The Jilting of the Bride,” and it takes the idea of the church being called the Bride of Christ to a different emotional level. As Jesus has not returned now in over 2,000 years, it is beginning to look as if She has been left waiting at the altar never really knowing when or if her groom is actually going to come back. Her global personality at present also looks horribly shattered, as there are endless sects and offshoots of Christianity that cannot get along with each other at all. It’s as if She doesn’t know whether to give up and find another groom or keep waiting forever for him to return.

    In fact, the state of the global church begins to resemble something that has appeared in Kashmir, where there are many women whose husbands have been abducted in the constant battles between India and Pakistan never to be seen again. Since the deaths of their husbands cannot be confirmed, they are left in a perpetual state of being half wife…and half widow, never being able to move on or have closure. While this type of thing is certainly not limited to India (nor am I taking sides in this particular matter), the analogy seems to fit rather well. Incidentally, I know of a number of wonderful people in both of these countries.

    So, I simply must be honest here. I am not comfortable with the example of any man who leaves a woman waiting indefinitely. It is neither respectful nor appropriate to drag things out forever and place the entire burden of emotional regulation on the woman while Jesus (at least in theory) is off doing whatever he and the Father thinks is appropriate. The NVC message that seems to emanate from the Biblical narrative is of a man that says to his bride, “I’ll come back whenever I feel like coming back,” and I’m just not comfortable with that at all.

    The other red flag I see in this is that when Jesus was here, he supposedly stated in Matthew 22:29-30 that there isn’t going to be any marriage in heaven. So, even if he were to come back for this bride, it would almost seem as if the marriage would be immediately annulled anyways. Again, this is not meant to be blasphemy but rather a window into the enormous emotional conflict I have with the narrative. If the church is to carry on at all, and it is in fact a type of bride, then it needs a true husband that can fully commit to her….and not just a groom that makes endless promises that never come to fruition. The pope can’t even do that for the Catholic church because he has no experience in being a husband or dad either, if I’m not mistaken.

    I know that you know how to care deeply for a woman, Cecil, and so do I. So, once again, I will state that I would rather use your level of commitment to your wife as an example to follow than that of Jesus. Once again, no blasphemy intended….just an expression of a need to see healthy role models to follow after throughout the course of my life.

    I’m not comfortable with the idea that the Authors’ version of paradise was a place in which there are no intimate relationships between members of the Family. The subsequent verse in Matthew 22:31 says that everyone will be like the angels. While many people seem to think this is a good thing, I on the other hand do not, because it means that we are a genderless or even neutered society that cannot learn the very hard lessons that come with raising children or trying to figure out how to relate with each other.

    This version of paradise does not appeal to me in any way, shape, or form, Cecil. So, if these are the “carrots” that are placed in front of me to try and motivate me to bond to either God or Jesus, I must tell you that they are entirely unattractive and ineffective. I would rather stay on this earth and learn to interact with people that know how to struggle, adapt, learn, and evolve than to lobotomize my mind and enter this eternal bliss.

    When I die, I will be quite fine with simply doing my part to refuel the earth and make room for others to come after me. I do not need to be so greedy as to want to live forever.

    Does this make me a bad person or an ignorant fool in your opinion?

  11. Adam J. Read says:

    Oops….I guess the part about angels in heaven was at the end of verse 30, not 31. Oh well. Making a few mistakes is the right of passage to innovation.

    Holy cow….we’ve just crossed the 125 page mark thus far. I never thought we would go this long at all.

    If you (or anyone else for that matter) want a copy of this, drop me a note at
    sapphirecc@verizon.net

    Yes, I know, Cecil. I’m not supposed to leave my email address, but you said that you were missing some posts, too, so I thought I’d offer one more time. If I get overwhelmed with junk mail, I can always close this email account down.

  12. Cecil says:

    @Adam “Cecil, I simply need a better example than Jesus to follow…”

    You won’t find a better leader anywhere on earth either as an individual, among any group, or in heaven.
    God being almighty, cannot be classified as a leader – he appoints leaders. Jesus being the ultimate.
    Every human leader God appointed was under obligation to serve him unreservedly during all his life.
    Facing these facts, who would you choose on earth? More important, how could he improve your life?

    Intelligent offspring of Adam have been around since Abel, Enoch and Noah.
    In between these very many thousands of the rest, (if not millions) of others were wicked from Cain to Ham.
    Moreover, most of these masses were ignorant, and their number has grown to a greater ratio in our day.
    God compares these to the turbulent sea which keeps tossing up mire to the earth: “But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
    There is no peace, says my God, for the wicked.” (Isaiah 57:20, 21 NKJV)
    Incidently, by comparison to ‘the sea’ (the wicked) ‘earth’ symbolizes the stable element among mankind.

    The more this sea multiplies the more unemployment grows, and Unions keep urging them to strike.
    Governments are unable to handle the situation, it’s becoming a crisis. These things were foretold:
    “… and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;” (Luke 21:25)
    What chance do you think your chosen one will have when these masses get too restless?

    Face facts. This world is kaput. The Anglo American World power is almost on its knees.
    Every form of government has been tried from despots to democracy, and all have warts.
    The ‘Great tribulation Jesus foretold will soon be here. “For then there will be great tribulation,
    such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matt. 24:21)

    When Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC the tribulation resulted in the death of millions.
    Jeremiah recorded how women even boiled their babies because of the terrible famine. Read Lamentations.
    Can you imagine how terrible the coming one will be?

  13. Cecil says:

    Adam: “we’ve just crossed the 125 page mark…if you (or anyone else for that matter) want a copy…”

    Thanks! But I don’t really need it.
    I’m here to help you, but can’t read or comment on everything except that which I consider important.
    Going to have supper, then bed. I’m rather worn out today.

  14. Adam J. Read says:

    Hi Cecil,

    If I may respond to your last post when you said this:

    “Thanks! But I don’t really need it.
    I’m here to help you, but can’t read or comment on everything except that which I consider important.”

    I read a story in this month’s Smithsonian magazine recently about Laurence of Arabia. What endeared him to the Arab culture was not his desire to teach…but the fact that he really wanted to know about their culture. They noticed that he was different than the other white guys out there because he was a listener. Once again, I have no issues with either the Arabs or the Turks in this particular conversation, but the pattern of endearment of one culture to another is unmistakeable.

    It has also been this way with my love of the Latino culture. While there are a great many of these cultures that have issues with each other, I have always been drawn to them as a whole. Most of the subcontractors we use are either Latino or have Latino laborers here (it’s just the way much of DC demographics goes), and since I have spent 20 years keeping pace at some level with this culture, it has created a camaraderie that would have never existed if I just showed up to teach them and not have them teach me as well.

    So, when you say, “Thanks. I don’t need it,” what that seems to tell me is that you have decided that you have all the answers to life already figured out and there is nothing more you can learn from someone like me. It says that you just want to preach and defend, which is what the Narrative tells you to do.

    Unfortunately, though, it also underscores my concern that Christianity believes itself to be a theological and ideological supremacy….that the only story line to consider is its own….and that all others are substandard and based on ignorance. I don’t believe I have all the answers, Cecil, but if we cannot step out of the Narrative to consider what could have been written instead of what was written, then we are confining ourselves to the imagination of a very few people that had no idea what this modern world would look like.

    That doesn’t seem very healthy to me.

  15. Adam J. Read says:

    To your second post, it seems as if you have already thrown in the towel and given up on humanity.

    I can’t do that, Cecil. I am one of them, and I don’t give up on my own people.

  16. Cecil says:

    @Adam “…you say…I don’t need it…you have decided…you have all the answers to life…there is nothing more you can learn from…me….you just want to preach and defend…what the Narrative tells you to do.”

    Now that’s really ‘nit picking’, ‘splitting hairs’, or other phrases indicative of ‘a chip on your shoulder’.
    I fail to see how you can tie up that statement with my appreciation of your offer,
    the fact that I had a busy day, and needed an early rest.

    Look Adam, you are ‘sabre rattling’. All your posts, and that of other atheists, appear to show how much more
    intelligent you are, compared to those who believe in an omniscient creator.

    You also don’t seem to appreciate that most of my days are taken up caring for an ailing semi-cripple wife.
    A leopard can’t change its spots. I suggest you henceforth interchange ideas with Weismonger and others
    who share your desire to conquer Christianity, and fulfill your combined hope to solve the world’s problems.
    I’ll watch – should I find time to do so.

  17. Adam J. Read says:

    Hi Cecil,

    I don’t believe that I have been absent minded about your wife, Cecil. I have mentioned her many times, and have made the gesture of helping you if I were at all capable of doing it. I also disagree with the charge of having a chip on my shoulder, but there is no need for me to protest in your personal perception.

    I do agree, however, that you and I have probably exhausted the debate between us. We have been at this for one day longer than Jesus was in the desert (a total of 41 days to date), and I most certainly admire your fortitude and the tremendous energy you have set forth, certainly given your schedule.

    I have been trying to think of how to package this up and give it a name. I have considered the title “The Son of John,” as it would reflect both my father’s name and a “missing prophecy” I would like to insert in the story line about the Apostle John himself. It is not my intent to be narcissistic in giving it this name, but a mere recognition that I posted a larger percentage of the conversation throughout our sojourn.

    This missing prophecy would have emanated from the mother of the Apostle John, actually, as she would have been one of the best people to vouch for his frame of mind as he grew up and perhaps even during the time he wrote the book of Revelations. It would give this religion an alternate path to pursue in lieu of having to follow the current trail all the way into the apocalypse, but it would be entirely made up on my end. So, it would carry no authority. It would make for an interesting movie, though….perhaps.

    I considered “A Fly on the Wall,” too, which would represent the notion that between a very small number of people such as you, me, Weismonger, and Seamus, a sentient fly would be the Scribe who bore witness to the account of our conversations. It would be the fly that wrote everything down in explicit detail, and the irony would be that an insignificant insect would be the one to write down something significant. Honestly, though, I have no idea if anyone else cares what you and I have said to each other, and perhaps we are the only ones in this bar after all.

    Anyways, thanks very much again for your efforts in all this (and to Weismonger as well). Perhaps you were right in that it was meant to help me and not you. In fact, it will probably help in ways you don’t even realize right now.

    You’re a good man, Cecil. Care for your wife, and I will care for mine and my children.

    Safe passage to you on your journey.

    Adam J. Read
    Construction Superintendent

  18. Adam J. Read says:

    Hmm….there seems to have been a delay on your last post, as it is recording a posting time of 9pm yesterday.

    You may end up seeing another post of mine show up that I thought simply didn’t post. Ignore it if you’d like. I figured it was just the universe’s way of telling me to hush. It was a combination of wit, humor, intrigue, and perhaps a little sarcasm. I apologize if it were to come off as waggishness, as you have mentioned in the past.

    That has been one of the most interesting parts of my journey….that there seems to be a sequence to timeless things, just like studying the different gears on a watch and how they ultimately affect the movement of the minute and hour hands. I’m certainly not in control of that sequencing, but it’s very fascinating to see it play out from time to time.

    Ciao.

  19. Adam J. Read says:

    “Forty Days Plus One”

    That’s a good title.

  20. Cecil says:

    > I most certainly admire your fortitude…energy…given your schedule.

    Thanks Adam,
    I realised after your first four or so responses that nothing quoted from scripture would impress you.
    But, I persisted even though some comments were unfavourable, (EG: “The guy who thinks he’s God…”)
    and even called you back three times after you wanted to opt out.

    > I do agree, however, that you and I have probably exhausted the debate…

    That may sum it up from the way you see things.
    But, when you said you were gathering comments to further your purpose,
    it clashed with my purpose, namely, to make known that there is one God and one faith. (Eph. 4:5,6)
    The rest may claim to be Christian, but their teachings invalidate that. (Matt. 7:21-13)

    > Care for your wife, and I will care for mine…
    Thank you. Sadly, she passed away two weeks ago after having a stroke three days before.
    I have been busy with notifications ever since, and will likely still be for some time.
    There is much more involved than many realise. We just don’t have time to mourn. (1 Thes. 4:13)

    Most go through seven stages in their short lives.
    1. We come to the end of babyhood
    2. We come to the end of our schooling
    3. We come to the end of our youth
    4. We come to the end of our bachelordom
    5. We come to the end of our employment
    6. We come to the end of our Marriage
    7. We come to the end of our lives

    You’re presently just past halfway.
    It was near that point when I became aware of how my early life was wasted. Ecclesiastes 1:1-3)
    As we wait for the sting of death, we realise how little we really know, and how much we have yet to learn.
    This awareness awaits you too.
    Keep well.

  21. Adam J. Read says:

    Hi Cecil,

    I’m so very sorry to hear about the passing of your wife. After you and I parted company, I briefly engaged another pastor who was caring for his ailing wife as well… Actually, it was Pastor Jim from the Universalist Church here in DC I mentioned a while back. I admire both of you tremendously for your commitment and your love of your spouses.

    My wife just gave birth to our fifth son a week ago today. This pregnancy was both very unexpected and extremely difficult. I took the week off…headed back reluctantly to work tomorrow because I know she is still recovering.

    Whether or not my life is just past halfway as you mentioned is a statement no one can authoritatively make. Theoretically, yes. In actuality, my life could end tomorrow. Every day we get up and face the world is a calculated risk…as is simply staying in bed and remaining at home, I suppose. On the other hand, every day is also an opportunity to make a difference in a way others may not be able to. Currently, I have my health, so I will make every effort to use that semi-youth that still remains to the benefit of humanity.

    After we parted, I also began discussing some of the things you and I have talked about with the department chair of the psychology department at a Christian university here in the States. He and I have a lot of common ground, and while he still obviously maintains his faith, he does recognize that there are many issues that the church has historically ignored that do create problems for itself. My latest note to him this weekend involved a conflict with our First Amendment which gives citizens a right to express their religion…and extremist religious organization in Syria called ISIS that is trying to create an Islamic caliphate. When a basic tenet of your religion involves killing everyone that doesn’t believe what you believe, I think the First Amendment is going to hit a wall.

    At any rate…I’m curious about something with you, Cecil.

    I would imagine that there will definitely be a period of recovery for you as you have just lost your wife. What do you think you are going to do now? In your case, I might replace number 6 about coming to the end of marriage…as that sounds like divorce. Perhaps number 6 might look like this:

    6. We come to the end of our spouse’s life…and yet we still have our health.

    You’re a good man, Cecil. Of that I have no doubt. Heck, I’d work with you even though there might be some conflict now and again. What does your future have in store for you?

    Take care,

    Adam

  22. Cecil says:

    > What does your future have in store for you?

    Hello Adam,
    As you suggest, everyone’s future is in their own hands.
    But, once a person becomes dedicated to God,
    their future is determined by obedience to his commands. (Proverbs 23:17, 18)

    The future of those living in an ‘ivory tower’ is based on faith in the ‘world’ of mankind,
    while ignoring facts that it’s getting close to total anarchy. (Eze. 38:18-21)
    That’s besides depletion of natural resources, extinction of animal life, population increase, etc…
    Oh yes, they are aware of these things, but brush it aside – their hope supersedes all.

    However, I won’t be participating in discussions for some time, but will keep reading new posts.
    Thanks for your kind thoughts.

  23. Adam J. Read says:

    Hi Cecil

    It’s so very unfortunate that the Christian world view is so pessimistic, depressing, and destined to end in tragedy…all because of the thoughts of one man…the Apostle John. How odd it is that over two billion believers in the world would simply give up on humanity and the planet itself because of one man.

    I wonder if humanity would allow one person to turn the ship away from the iceberg…or if it wants nothing more than to see itself commit planetary suicide? It would be nice to see a movement of believers…or people in general that aren’t so quick to step off the ledge just because someone tells them they are destined to do so. That is the epitome of unhealthy indoctrination and charismatic manipulation.

    Take care, Cecil.

    Adam

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