Hear, O LORD, when I cry aloud; be gracious to me and answer me! You have said, “Seek my face.“ My heart says to you, “Your face, LORD, do I seek.” Hide not your face from me. Turn not your servant away in anger, O you who have been my help. Cast me not off; forsake me not, O God of my salvation!
Psalm 27:7-9
Mark,
It has been a while since you posted. Summertime is upon us, and I hope your silence is filled with the love of your family and lots of quality time together. You mentioned that you were planning on dialing down your search and devoting more time to the people around you. Hope this is going well, and that the restless storm of doubt has been subdued enough so that it does not consume your every thought.
I found myself wondering whether you have had much exposure to the so-called “Emerging Church” movement? There are some really poor expressions of Christianity lumped under this umbrella, but also some leaders and communities that offer some refreshing perspectives and an epistemological humility that it sorely lacking in most of the evangelical church. I know you have been focusing on the historicity of the resurrection, and I agree that this is a (the?) crucial issue. But I wonder if a conclusion can even be reached with the level of certainty you might require. There is a large body of evidence supporting the historicity of the resurrection, and this is sufficient for some people to conclude that a true bodily resurrection is the best explanation. But others find the evidence not to be compelling, and opt for other explanations. The truth is that we can never know with absolute certainty; there is no scientific, empirical conclusion to be reached. It is not a scientific question but a historical one, and we can only weigh which explanation is most probable, and there will always be counterarguments.
The reason I mention the Emerging church movement is that the best thinking from this movement has addressed issues of the faith from a post-modern perspective. (post-modern means different things to different people, but I can’t go into that now). As inheritors of Enlightenment rationalism and the scientific method, we instinctively seek to answer questions with an empirical, (hyper)rational approach. Postmodern approaches are broader, drawing from multiple modes of knowing (epistemology).
And many of the themes that keep coming up in this forum: the injustice of hell, the penal satisfaction understanding of Jesus’ death, the relationship of Christianity and other religions – all of these are addressed in a manner much different than traditional evangelicalism, which tends to be thoroughly modern.
While I don’t agree with everything he says, Brian McLaren’s “Generous Orthodoxy” and “A New Kind of Christian” are great introductions to this perspective.
I know you are trying not to be consumed by reading and researching, but while I am in book recommendation mode, might I suggest 1) Michael Lodahl’s “The Story of God” – an excellent introduction to narrative theology, 2) Peter Enns’ “Incarnation and Inspiration: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testment” – an insightful exploration of the nature of the Bible, and 3) anything by John Polkinghorne for issues of faith and science.
Peace to all,
Kyle
I’m sorry that you have been through such inner conflict. I spent some time there myself. I have no advice to give you on what God will or will not do in your situation. I do know this, the Holy Spirit is sent to reveal Christ to us and He is very good at his job. I pray that He reveals Him to you in such a way that all doubts will fade away.
Psa. 46:10. “Cease striving and know that I am God.
Kyle,
I haven’t had too much exposure to the Emerging Church. I grew up in a somewhat liberal church, and I would naturally lean that way any ways. When I read a book I do appreciate when the author shows humility and does not push the interpretation of the evidence too far. I understand that there will not be absolute certainty this side of heaven. I’m just looking for something in which to step forward in faith. I don’t know what that would look like, and I’m not sure if I would know it if it hit me in the face.
Like you mentioned there are a lot of questions that get even more complicated when one throws modern and post-modern thinking into the mix. But for me, at present, it still comes down to: did God come down in human form and die on the cross to save us from our sins and give the gift of eternal life? That is the basis of all Christianity, whether Emerging Christianity of Evangelical Christianity. Sure there are shades to this and many other issues, but this is what everything else hangs on. So that’s why right now I’m trying to focus on the resurrection of Jesus and the reliability of the NT.
Thanks for the book recommendations. I’ll be sure to check them out.
J.M. Howard,
From your mouth to God’s ears! I’m curious about the verse you quoted (Psalm 46:10). Is this saying to stop searching, to stop seeking, to stop trying and just know? How does that work? J.M., how did you come out of doubt? You said you have no advice, but maybe going into your experience and how you came out of doubt would be helpful.
Mark,
Thanks for the honest appraisal of required evidence, certainty, and faith. I like the wiki tab you set up as a resource for evaluating the truth of Christianity. Your book summaries are very well done. Has anyone else been participating? As I mentioned in my other post today I have never really studied the “best” arguments against the historicity of the resurrection or against the reliability of the NT. I would be willing to examine this area and write up a summary for the wiki. I think honest debate requires the capacity to state the arguments from both sides accurately and fairly. Too many straw men used on both sides. What books would you recommend in this area?
Kyle,
No one has added anything to the wiki. I did get spammed early on, so I had to restrict access to only those who login. I also don’t get much traffic on this site (odd that it’s #1 for Christian doubt). However, that’s a good thing because hopefully that means that not many people doubt and also I don’t have to spend much time dealing with website upkeep.
I agree with what you said, “honest debate requires the capacity to state the arguments from both sides accurately and fairly.” I’ve looked at a couple debate books that I was hoping to do this, but debaters often just talk past each other. So I’m trying to put down the arguments from both sides on the wiki to try to make sense of it all.
The books I’ve read are listed here , and would recommend them (they range in style and debth). Unfortunately, I didn’t take the best notes when reading (just highlighting and some notes in the margin) so I’m now having to go back and make better notes, which I’m putting in the wiki. I would love any additions to the wiki.
Cool. I have requested Bart Erhman’s Jesus, Interrupted from the library and will plan on summarizing for the wiki.
Mark,
I lost this bookmark when my computer crashed. Found it again accidently, hmmmm. I see it’s been more than a year. Has anything changed in your search? And, yes, I can relate my experience (Acts 4:13; 20. Rom. 15:18a.) I was raised in a believing home, my father and mother’s relationship with Jesus was exhibited in the way they lived rather than words and church attendance. Growing up, I never had a relationship with Him, other than attending church. I rebelled and became an agnostic, at best. When I was 28 (I am now 64) years old I was riding my 4 year old daughter on a Massey Ferguson 135 tractor with a 3 point hitch, cast iron box blade disk on it. She fell off the tractor and I ran over her. She was lying on her back and the rear tire crushed her from her breast bone to the pelvic area. The tires were filled with water and I was in the driveway. Needless to say, I knew without a doubt that I had killed her. When we arrived at the small town hospital, X-Ray revealed that she suffered major damage. My mother in law was in the emergency room with her and she was praying for her. I thought to myself what a joke. She was rushed to a trauma center 40 miles away. I was not emotionally able to go with her. My wife had my son stay with me – she was afraid that I would commit suicide. Next day I went to her hospital room and the only people in the room were two doctors. They were examining the X-Rays by holding them up agains the window. One said that he could see a hairline break in her pubic bone and the other argued with him. He said that was only where the bone had not yet matured enought to bond together and it was normal for her age. Both turned around and asked if I was the father. After finding that I was, one Dr. told me that I had better be glad that I was in plowed ground when the accident happened. I told him that I was in the driveway – he just stared at me in unbelief. The tractor tread marks were on her body, but there was no damage. None. She was home the next day climbing her favorite tree. It was then I knew that there is a God and He is up close and personal. That was when I began searching for Him. And, no, Psa. 46:10 (Mat. 7:7-11) does not mean to quit the searching. But, at some point I had to just shut down the struggle and wait for Him to reveal Himself to me.
I found that it was not my searching that caused me to find Him. Rather it was Him calling me to come to Him. I do believe that He calls to everyone, sometimes through the conscience and sometimes through circumstances.
Sorry it took so long to answer you.
JM Howard
J.M.Howard,
Thanks for the fascinating story. I’m so glad your daughter survived. I can’t even imagine what you went through. J.M. I’m curious, if your mother-in-law was a Jehovah Witness or Mormon, would you have become a Jehovah Witness or Mormon instead? What if your daughter didn’t survive. Would you have denied the existence of a loving God? What if your daughter became a quadriplegic. Would that have been enough to know that there is a God? Crazy stuff happens all of the time, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Supposedly God’s in control of both, so why would a random, somewhat miraculous event be proof that there is a God?
Mark,
I’m sorry, I did not mean to give the impression that I was seeking proof that God existed. I was not seeking Him at all. Gave Him no thought until that happened. As I mentioned, I can only relate to you the things I’ve seen and heard myself. Anything else is heresay in any society and in any court. Frankly, I was more interested in living life the way I chose. I have been at the mercy of what Churchhill called the “Black Dog’ of depression since my teenage years. I worked for BellSouth, made good money and spent most of it on partying. After that I did begin to look for Him, but in my own way. I really wanted to know a God that could do what He did with my daughter. I avoided organized religion as if it were a plague. I became a devotee of Buddhism and tried Trancsendental Meditation, philosophies of Kant and Carl Jung. It was the late 60′s and early 70′s. I used drugs that were popular at that time. Tried LSD a few times, smoked pot, used methamphetamines, downers and such. Did some other things that I am ashamed to mention. I continued searching for about two years after the accident with no tangible results. It got to the point that I completely lost hope. Picked up my Rem. Model 700 and drove to a gravel pit not far from home with the full intention of comitting suicide.
I sat there and went over all the reasons to complete the transaction I heard a voice so plain that I turned around an looked in the back seat, fully expecting to see the person that said “you have not tried me.” I instinctively knew who it was. I drove back home and found the Bible my mother gave me when I was a boy. I turned towards the back, knowing that the red letters in there were said by the one who spoke to me. The page I turned to had these words: “You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free”. The more I read the more emotionally distraught I became. I threw the Bible across the floor, smoked some pot and went to bed. The next night my dear wife had found the Bible under a table and put it back on the table by my chair. I picked it up again and flipped open towards the back again. I read the following: “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me”. At that moment I called on Him and asked Him to give me that Life because I had completely ruined the one I had. He did that 36 years ago. I do not have the time, or space to relate to you the many convincing proofs of my relationshiip with Him. I don’t have a clue why I am telling you this, I don’t frequent blogs – ever. I guess it broke my heart when I read of your struggle to prove or disprove the fact of God’s existence. It is something that I take for granted now. By the way, I have buried my twin grandaughters. One was 3 1/2 years old, the other 8 years old. And He is still my Friend and constant companion. You can visit this site if you want: http://usgwarchives.net/ms/msphotos/pearlriver/juniper/juniper.htm
Look under Cain, Janna Celeste. This was taken before Anna passed.
JM Howard
Hi Mark,
I think of you often and still pray for you and your family. I was thinking of you today and the question you asked me back in Sept. 2010 came to mind. I don’t have an explanation for it.
But an answer came to mind and I will share it with you.
The great philosopher, Vince Lombardi (former Coach of Green Bay Packers) said: “If, if and buts were candy and nuts it would be Christmas all year long.”
Thing about my mother in law was that she was a follower of The Christ. I have never met anyone who was more like Him. Her love was “without strings attached” and she never spoke a negative word. During the time I was abusing alcohol and drugs she never castigated me for the behavior shown to her daughter and grandchildren. I and two of my drinking buddies arrived home on a Sunday morning after carousing all night. This was just at the time she came to pick up my wife and children for church. When she came in the door and saw me she put her arms around me and told me how much she loved me and what a beautiful family I had. She was crying and I had no defense for that kind of love, none. When they left for church she said: Oh by the way, I smashed your whiskey bottle against the chimney, I hope you will forgive me.”
Had she been a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness, I don’t think the outcome would be the same. Irregardless, she wasn’t, she was a Christian in the true sense of the word.
J.M. Howard