I think it’s fitting to phrase it this way. Instead of saying “I lost my faith”, in reality my faith lost me. I don’t care to get in an argument regarding free will and predestination. Most Christians, I believe, would agree that God has an active role in their faith; that they couldn’t have faith and believe on their own, that God chose them to have faith. So why should losing faith be any different?
I didn’t wake up one day and decide to lose my faith. I once had faith in God and now I don’t. I don’t want to be in unbelief. I really do want to believe. But my faith lost me somewhere along the way and I hope that one day it will find me again.
Mark,
In this regard we are truly kindred spirits. I never wanted to be an atheist. Nearly all of my friends are Christians and most are pretty conservative. I enjoy spending time with them, and I loved my time with God in the mornings and talking to him throughout the day.
During my de-conversion I wanted my faith back, but once I made my decision I felt such freedom, it was truly like being born again. It’s really refreshing to have a blank slate and to be able to discover the world without the restraints of dogma.
I wish you the best.
Mike,
You said, “once I made my decision”, was there a decision point where you said, “I will no longer believe”? For me I feel like the decision has been out of my hands. Also it appears that you are still discovering and searching. Is there something you are searching for?
The decision was more one to admit my lack of belief to myself and my loved ones, not one to disbelieve. I firmly believe that one cannot decide to believe something, though I’ve had the argument with several theists. I always ask them to choose to believe in unicorns or some such thing and they respond that they can’t because their is no evidence for unicorns. If you could decide to believe something I would still be a Christian.
I am fascinated by religion, and know mostly Christians so that is what I explore. I am not looking for anything in particular, but also don’t want to miss something so I keep looking. I also have made it my mission to attempt to get Christians and atheists to dialogue reasonably.
Mark >> Instead of saying “I lost my faith”, in reality my faith lost me.
That’s a good way to put it. I’ve described my struggles as “seeing my faith evaporate before my very eyes.”
Mark >> …that God chose them to have faith. So why should losing faith be any different?
Great question! I don’t think Christians want to face this difficult issue. Perhaps we are like Esau (Romans 9:13), and God hated us before our birth. Or we are the Rocky Soil (Mark 4:5), and our purpose is to make the Fertile Soil of True Christians all the more glorious.
Or perhaps it’s all a bunch of crap and some of us just finally realized it.
Mike >> I firmly believe that one cannot decide to believe something, though I’ve had the argument with several theists.
You are absolutely correct. We can choose beliefs, but we cannot force beliefs. It’s called Doxastic Voluntarism. Once I came to these conclusions on my own, it made the Arminian Christian God to which I was clinging seem quite odd.
My only hope to remain a Christian at all is if God zaps a whole lot of faith into me. He can do it, right? I have too many “character flaws” (e.g. reliance upon my rational mind, a desire for strong evidence, etc.) to maintain my faith. So I ask Him to zap it right in. Overwhelm me with faith!
I wonder why He’s not doing it? Isn’t that strange? It’s almost like I’m praying to an idol.
- Jim
Mike,
It’s good to hear that you are still looking. I think it is unwise when people close their minds to things (on both sides of the issue).
Jim,
I sense a lot of frustration in your comment. Oh, I have so many days like that. For me the frustration can quickly turn into anger. Just be careful that it doesn’t cloud the picture. If your rational mind needs strong evidence, search for it. I know the silence of God (if he exists) is frustrating, but if he exists he probably has a good reason for doing so. So I try to take a deep breath and plod on through the books, mp3s, and websites while keeping Jeremiah 29:13 in mind.
“Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, you who seek the Lord: look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug. Look to Abraham your father and to Sara who bore you;” (Isaiah 51:1-2)
In speaking of the Israelites Paul says, “and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor.10:4)
“Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.” (James 4:10)
Nice verses, Nichole, but none of them will magically make someone experience God.
The last verse implies that, perhaps, someone is not being humble. I haven’t seen Mark being arrogant here, unless expressing doubt is arrogant.
Mike & Mark,
I don’t think I in any way implied belief in “magic”. I do believe in the power of God’s word which is “living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Heb.4:12)
As far as James 4:10 is concerned, I myself was convicted of my own hardheartedness toward God recently, and I humbled myself before Him the night before last, and He did a mighty work in my heart that I was very grateful for. We can always humble ourselves before God, we are all sinners. It was the grace that God extends in response to such an act that I was praying for, for Mark.
“Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.” (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Nichole,
I agree, I think one can always humble oneself more. If Christianity is true, Christ is an extreme example of humbleness, “who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!” That’s why if I ever do eventually believe in a God again, Christianity would be my first choice.
I try to be on guard against pride and a hardened heart, and there are always places to improve. However, I have a skewed view on things. I’m looking from my perspective. Who knows what others see, or what God sees?
Nichole,
I wasn’t trying to say you believed in magic, though some would see belief in the power of God as the same thing, my point is that a few verses or even reading the whole Bible isn’t enough to make someone believe in something. If one doesn’t experience God then how can they believe in him?
Mike,
Is experience the primary factor? Are we sure that we would recognize an experience of God if we had one? Or perhaps that is your point. Since we can’t know if we are experiencing God then we can’t be expected to believe in him. I think most of us have an expectation of what an experience of God would be like. What if that expectation is incorrect?
What about others who tell about their experiences of God? Might one believe in God based on the experience of someone they trust? Or is all experience, even our own, too subjective and open to multiple interpretations to ever be taken as a certain or highly probable experience of God?
Sorry about the barrage of questions; they are intended for all readers – just triggered by your comment. Belief is indeed a curious and perplexing phenomenon.
“Is experience the primary factor?”
I’d say for most people it is. If people weren’t experiencing something they called God, then I don’t think they would remain theists for very long.
“Are we sure that we would recognize an experience of God if we had one?”
Most theists that I talk to are 100% certain that they have experienced and continue to experience God. Many of them are exclusivist Christians who discount the experiences of people from other faiths, but are certain that their own is true.
“I think most of us have an expectation of what an experience of God would be like. What if that expectation is incorrect?”
My expectation is that it would be rather obvious that the most powerful and profound being in the universe was trying to get my attention. My expectations are also partially based on my 20 years as a Christian. God was pretty visible in the Bible, but not so much since then.
“What about others who tell about their experiences of God? Might one believe in God based on the experience of someone they trust?”
For some perhaps, but I’m no more convinced of God’s existence by others experiences than I am of bigfoot, the loch ness monster, or alien abductions. I’m not saying those things are in the same league as God, I’m just saying that they are examples of things that people claim to have experienced that most don’t believe.
“Or is all experience, even our own, too subjective and open to multiple interpretations to ever be taken as a certain or highly probable experience of God?”
I’m not even certain that any of this exists, though I seem to repeatedly wake up every day and live my life, that’s no guarantee that it’s real.
Hi Mark,
i saw this post and thought of you.
http://de-conversion.com/2009/03/23/dear-god/
Mike wrote >> I’m not even certain that any of this exists, though I seem to repeatedly wake up every day and live my life, that’s no guarantee that it’s real.
Or are we just plugged into the Matrix?
Mike,
Thanks for the link.
Totally, Matt. Woah, I know Kung Fu!
Just keep taking the blue pill and it will be alright.
Some solid Cartesian doubt working here, even beyond Descartes. It sounds to me like “I think therefore… well maybe I don’t even think.”
I personally have found value in the experience of others. I am skeptical about most accounts, but there are a few people for which I take their experiences to be authentic.
But I also have days of thinking where is God in MY life?