It has been about 2 years now that I have seriously doubted the faith I grew up with. There wasn’t a specific moment in time, but it was around this time two long years ago that I started spiraling down into doubt. It seems so long ago, and it is becoming harder and harder to remember the faith I once had.
Last night in my church small group, one of our church leaders made some comments about how glad he was to see everyone growing in their faith and love of God. However, in my mind I was screaming in anguish for my faith that was lost. I was not growing in faith. I can’t even find the faith I once had. I don’t even know if it is still there.
I haven’t blogged much recently because I have started reading the big book by N.T. Wright on the resurrection. Many people had recommended it, saying that it is one of the best books on the resurrection. I started reading it (for the second time) with the hope that it would help specifically with my doubt of the resurrection. But so far it hasn’t, and this is scary. It’s scary because my hope is slowly disappearing. After 2 very long years of daily struggling with this, can I really hope that God will give me faith again? Isn’t the lack of answered prayers just more evidence that He doesn’t exist? How many more years does one have to struggle before giving up? Psalm 13 has become my daily cry. “How long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever?”
Hi Mark,
The lack of answered prayers is more evidence you are not a Christian. I remember being at a point three or four years ago, where I doubted the “faith I grew up in.” The more educated I became, the more of the Bible I read, the more unrealistic it all seemed. I supressed these doubt for a while, figuring I could lead a pretty happy life as a Christian, without the risk of being damned for eternity.
Feel free to e-mail me, your story is heart breaking. I don’t have any encouraging words for you, but I would love to talk.
Hi Mark,
I just found your website and have really enjoyed reading it. I’m planning to follow this site and to go back and comment on some of the older posts. I appreciate your honesty and open-mindedness.
I am a new Christian doubter, so it’s good to hear from someone who is ahead of me on the journey, and it’s nice to be assured I’m not alone.
My story:
I am in my early twenties. Like you, I grew up in a good Christian home and went to Christian school; I am graduating this year from a conservative Baptist Bible college. Ever since I was young, I have been strongly interested in spiritual things and radically committed to my faith.
Until this past November. I accidentally stumbled into an online debate with some intellectual atheists who basically annihilated my arguments and showed me that I could not defend my faith nearly as well as I thought I could. Their arguments made sense; and for the first time, I considered that everything I’d always believed could be wrong.
(Other factors played into the situation as well, making me ripe for serious doubt: for example, I had just come out of a treatment center for severe depression and as a result was making major changes in my life–so I was open to other changes. Also, I had withdrawn from my church and friends, so I didn’t have as much Christian influence on my thinking as before.)
Since then, my doubt has only grown. It feels like I’m questioning everything there is to question, but my main question is the existence of God. I haven’t been able to do as much research as I’d like to because of time constraints, but I’ve compiled a list of books to read as soon as I can. (I’m grateful for the recommendations I’ve found here!) I’ve also applied to some non-Christian/secular grad schools in religious studies (though some of my Christian friends and relatives don’t want me to go). And I’ve left my church to visit churches of other denominations and religions.
So to me, this doubt is not just a passing phase…this is a major turning point in my life. I am starting to leave my precious Christian faith–either for a more intellectual Christian faith than what I’ve had, or for a completely different set of beliefs. Only time will tell.
A side note: It seems like all the people who share their stories on here mention their relationship to evolution, so I figure I should as well. Essentially, I have always considered evolution a sad yet laughable delusion of those who don’t want to believe in God. But now I am realizing that I need to know what science really says about it. So I’m glad to interact with someone who is a scientist.
Thank you for this website. I wish you the best, and I’m sorry I cannot offer you any hope for the laments you expressed in this post. If in my searchings I come across some hope for those who doubt, I will be sure to pass it on to you.
Ashton,
I’ll try to reply to some of them in the coming days. I’m sorry that you are going through doubt too. As you know, doubt is difficult, especially when it turns ones life upside down with regards to friends, family, social life, etc. Even though I feel for you about going through doubt, it gives me some comfort to hear about someone going through it too. Most of the people I meet are on either side of the fence and not stuck straddling it. I hope this site helps in some way.
I’m glad you found this site. I think you get the prize for most comments
Good luck in applying to grad school, I’m sure you will learn a lot in the coming years.
David,
I’m not sure I agree with “the lack of answered prayers is more evidence you are not a Christian”. There are many “unanswered” prayers by Christians (i.e. children dieing, diseases, world hunger, etc.) are these individuals non-Christians because their prayers are unanswered? And when I considered myself a true Christian slipping into doubt, are you saying that my prayers for increases in faith were unanswered because I was already not a Christian? Or are you saying like I have heard from others that I was never a Christian to begin with?
I just discovered your blog and read it all through. Like you, I was raised in the CRC, graduated from Calvin, even still attend a CRC because my wife is a prof at Calvin.
I think I’m about 5 years ahead of you. I vaguely started doubting when I was about 40. Since then what belief I had is pretty much completely gone. All the feelings you express in your blog, the loneliness, the devil’s advocate – I’ve been there. It does get easier. At least it did for me.
A couple of realizations have made it much more comfortable for me as I settle into a kind of weak atheism:
1. I never had a problem with evolution challenging my belief in God, even before my doubts. What I eventually realized, was that evolution challenges many of the orthodox Christian dogmas: original sin, etc. Specifically, if God did in fact use evolution to create, he chose a very clever mechanism and deserves some kudos for that. But, he also chose a mechanism that is heavy on death and suffering. No way the old Heidelberg Catechism Q&A can withstand that challenge – human sin could not have possibly caused all the pre-human suffering for millions of years. So if there is a God, I don’t think he cares about suffering and death as much as we do. That realization gave me the confidence that it is utterly pointless to ascribe motives to God. Just like that, the personal relationship – need to redeem humanity from original sin – has a plan for your life – God vaporized.
2. It’s not God or God’s existence I have a problem with, it’s humanity’s made-up dogmas about God. I no longer believe the Bible is anything more than ancient humanity’s guessing game at what God would want or do. Just more ascribing motives to God.
Once I realized this, the world suddenly got so much easier to understand. I no longer had to find clever ways to explain things by ascribing motives to God, nor by committing the age-old cop-out: “We cannot know the mind of God.”
Good luck with your doubt. I hope it gets easier for you as it did for me. I’ll keep watching your blog as you find a place to settle in on the big slippery slope of life.
I’ll point you to a church near me that does great sermons as podcasts. It’s the kind of church that redefines faith in a way I find easy to swallow: http://christ-community.net
Pither,
Wow, CRC, Calvin, Heidelberg Catechism! The internet makes it a small world. Regarding evolution, I agree with you for the most part, except for the personal relationship being destroyed for the lack of regard for death. Granted with the hundreds of millions of years of death and suffering before us it does make things look messed up. However, compared to eternity its just a flash in the pan. I kind of make the analogy of an infant crying after they’ve pooped in their diaper. They cry and cry as if the world is going to end. Their in so much pain and agony. But from our perspective its just a quick and easy fix. God also didn’t just ignore our sufferings, but came alongside of us through Jesus. That’s if any of this is true. . .
I’d like to ask your thoughts since it seems that you are ahead of me on this journey of life. Is it difficult to keep going to church when you don’t believe anymore? Have you told people at church? How has your relationship with your wife been? Does she subscribe to a weak atheism too? Thanks.
Mark,
Well I hoped you would e-mail me, but I’m sure you’re very busy — and you want all this catalogued in one place, right? I prefer that over this, since in an e-mail we can have a slower, more analytical conversation.
The Bible says, if you fall away, you are not a Christian. If that’s false, it’s a fear tactic to keep you in the religion; if it’s true, it means you weren’t a Christian to begin with. There are a lot of other statements in scripture that fall into a similar category.
Such As:
You must have a child like faith to be saved. Not many wise in the world are saved. God hates the proud, but gives grace to the humble. The wisdom of the world, is foolishness with God. The greeks sought after wisdom, but the cross was a stumbling block to them. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. You cannot see the kingdom of God, unless you are born again. If you seek him, you will find him. If I have told you earthly things and you have not believed, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me. You have not believed because you are not my sheep.
Again, if any of those statements are true, you’re in trouble, right?
The Bible also says that there is enough general revelation to convince you there is a God. It also says that people do not recieve Christ, because of their evil deeds, since they love darkness rather than light. So that would be a good question; did your doubt become a big issue because holding onto a belief in Christianity conflicted with a desire?
I believe the Bible is the word of God, so I don’t think that allows me to draw any other conclusions than above, without abandoning my belief. Why do I have this belief to begin with?
Because when I read the Bible, the spirit withnesses to me that it’s true. Could it be any other way, if true? Imagine if there was one way to salvation for unsophisticated people, and another for the highly intelligent and analytical.
Remember the rich man and Lazarus? He asked to send word back to his brothers, so they would not end up where he was. He was essentially told, if they do not believe the Old Testament, they would not believe a super natural sign.
And that’s what you’re asking for. You’re asking for something, the Bible says you shouldn’t expect. The Bible says you already have enough. If that’s not enough, the Bible’s wrong, and go live your life. You don’t need ten reasons why the ressurection is true. I do not particularly like apologetics. It’s funny, I grew up a Christian, and spend years studying apologetics, arguments for the existence of God, creation vs evolution, etc… and I was lost and doubting the faith I defended! I didn’t enjoy reading the Bible, and it was so hard to understand. I wondered how all the other Christians seemed to love God so much, and I felt nothing.
But Two years ago, a super natural work was done in me, and now I could care less about apologetics. I love reading the Bible, and I love God! If apologetics is done for any other reason than the glory of God, it is self-defeating. The Bible claims you don’t need it for conversion!
I believe that only God can save, and he does so through the gospel. I don’t know you, but I care for you — and here is the Gospel —
Are you proud or humble? Do you love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength — or do you love something else with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Do you lust after other women?
These things are enough to condemn you. If you are repentant,
all you need is to believe on the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. All who believe on him, will not be condemned. If you believe on him, the wrath of God that abides on you for your sin, was placed on him.
David,
There are a couple reasons I respond through the blog. One is that maybe our conversation may help someone else who doubts their faith. Another reason is that it fosters a more open environment. Still another reason is that it allows others to join in the discussion. Also, if I ever get too busy, someone else can reply to comments posted.
The “once saved always saved” is a much heated debate, which I don’t feel qualified in entering with you. Maybe in the future, I can research this more and get back to you, but I have a feeling that will be far off, maybe in the life to come we can discuss it. But then it will be pointless, eh?
The passage I’d like to pull out that you spoke of is the, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” There is the promise that I will regain my faith if I seek with all my heart. Not mind, but heart.
I like your comment about sin’s influence on doubt. I can see where you’re coming from, and I have tried to look in my life and remove/address these issues. It’s a work in progress, but I’m sure the Bible doesn’t teach that I have to be perfect before believing in God.
So maybe I’ll follow your example and just keep reading the Bible until the Spirit witnesses to me that it’s true. However, I’ll also keep researching the resurrection (a form of meditation). I’m sure God wouldn’t mind.
Belief is an odd thing. It’s not as easy as some make out. It’s not about will power. I can’t force myself to believe. If it was I’d have done it a long time ago. Unfortunately I’m cursed with a critical mind.
I don’t think it is wrong to ask God for faith, to help with my unbelief. The Bible has many examples of people asking God for signs and evidence. I agree that there is a danger of testing God, however I think there is a difference in thinking God should jump through hoops and a desperate man pleading with God to lend his heart to belief. Your conversion story is great, and it would be great if God did the same with me. However, it is likely that God will lead me another way. All options are open.
Hi Mark,
I came here via your comment at Memoirs of an ex-Christian. I think I’ve read here before, but this past year or so has been a whirlwind of blogs and other religious or non-religious sites, so forgive me if I’m not certain.
My last several months as a Christian consisted of me on my knees daily, begging God to be more real than the lesser beings I encountered in my day to day life. I didn’t need a burning bush, but some sort of real, tangible communication would have cemented my faith permanently. Sadly, and in hindsight not surprisingly, it never came.
I look forward to reading more here and wish you the best on your journey.
Mike,
Thanks for stopping by. Yeah, the invisibility (supernatural) of God is a big stumbling block to me too. It’s true that the invisible and the non-existent often look very similar. However, on the flip side, could there ever be a real relationship with God if I saw just a glimpse? Would that glimpse be so over whelming and powerful that I would be forced into a completely submissive “forced love” attitude. Would that eliminate my free will? So maybe this tension between God being hidden and us searching is ideal.
I’ve had many Christians argue that if God revealed himself tangibly to me that it would invalidate my free will, because I couldn’t resist worshiping him. Oddly enough, in my 20 years as a Christian, and being a dabbler in apologetics, I never heard this argument.
It’s usually conservative Christians who believe in hell that make this argument. Why would he remain hidden to the point of sending people to hell? My response question is always to ask them to make a list of all the people that had God actually talk to them in the Bible, and ask if he violated their free will?
Interesting point Mike. I like your response about did God violate free will of those who God talked to in the Bible. A great example would be Paul’s conversion. Here’s a person against Christianity that makes a 180 degree turn because God talks to him. Did he still have free will? Could he have gone on to pursecute the Christians? There are some who think we don’t have free will to begin with, which makes the problem of hell even more of a problem.
Does it make hell more of a problem?
Though it may raise other questions (as I’m sure it does!), I would like to point out that the following common questions are completely answered by a change in theology:
#1 Why doesn’t God show himself, as to ensure the most people believe and go to Heaven?
#2 What about all the people who never hear the gospel? How can God judge people for not believing what they haven’t heard?
#3 Why doesn’t God do something about all the suffering in the world? God can’t both be all powerful AND all loving.
I believe these questions assume two things:
A. Mankind is basically good, and deserves a life without suffering.
B. If you give man enough evidence, they will believe in God.
C. People go to hell because they don’t believe in God/the Gospel.
Now, I think the reason why questions #1 – #3 are so common, is because they’re right! If I believed assumptions A-C, I would have a crisis of faith, because I find there isn’t much of a logical response to questions #1-3. Interestingly, assumptions A-C are recent developments, despite being pervasive in American Christianity.
But what if the Bible is true when it says that mankind is wicked, and all the thoughts and intents of his heart is only evil continually –and that we are wicked from our youth? Now, we’re not really in an objective position to answer that question — since we’re one of them. One way of comprehending what the Bible says about us, might be to think of a movie analogy.
(This is about to sound ridiculous, but I think it makes the point.)
Starship Troopers — the Bug Aliens, Terminator – The Machines, Lord of the Rings – The Goblins/Orcs.
We certainly don’t have a problem with wiping out all of the bugs, machines, and orcs… because they’re evil. It’s good for them to be wiped out! What if God is GOOD and HOLY. And we are Evil? Then it’s good for God to destroy us. Any amount of suffering I, or any other human experience, is deserved.
Now what about babies? Well, using the above analogy, what about Bug/Orc babies? Given the strength of an adult, would we not say they were naturally evil? I propose that children, though naive of evil, are not innocent.
That might be a hard pill to swallow, but I don’t think we’re objective, since after all, we’re the ones in question. The Bible says in iniquity, are we concieved.
So, while there may be disagreement with the Bible — it is an assumption nonetheless, that we do not deserve the worst things possible, here on earth. Which if you think about it, is the only way we could possibly deserve an eternity of Hell. Only if we are really that evil… could God send us to hell… forever!
Which brings us to assumption B. If we are really that evil… would we really run to God, if he showed himself to us? I don’t think the Bible supports that — I think the Bible says we would run from God and rebel against him, without the work of the Holy Spirit. Is it fair for God to only save some? (My stripes revealed?) It’s only unfair, if we all deserve salvation. But its merciful, if none of us deserve it.
Finally… mercy makes sense. When Satan and the angels fell, God never sent them a savior. He didn’t have to send us one either. But… God is so kind, that he saved insignificant, evil… man.
And finally, point C. Do we go to hell for not hearing about the gospel? Not really anymore than you die for jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. It’s true, had one believed the Gospel, they would be saved — but ultimately, it comes down to rebelling against God, with whatever knowledge that we do have.
And what about free will? I suppose the Bible doesn’t use the term “Free will” — but it does say that man is evil. I suppose man is free to do what he most wants to do, which is to sin. Our problem is not that there is a great chasm between us and God, which the cross falls in place to bridge th Gap… the problem is we’re at the bottom of a chasm dead, in love with our sin — and Christ comes down and ressurects us — takes out our heart of stone, and gives us a heart of flesh — one that loves God. That’s not the same thing as violating free-will, it’s just a statement about the kind of will that we have. No can say “I want God to change me, so I’ll love and worship him.”
Though probably offensive, I believe this is what the Bible teaches — and as a plus, it solves so many of the objections to modern Christianity. Where modern Christianity portrays a God has made a way of salvation, but has not the power or the inclination to get the message out.
Mark, finally getting around to replying….
>Is it difficult to keep going to church when you don’t believe anymore?
Very difficult. Especially difficult watching my kids starting to drink the kool-aid. I keep wondering why it always has to be about the belief in dogma. Why can’t it be about being a supportive community and helping a world in need? That’s why I wish I were going to http://christ-community.net
>Have you told people at church?
One now-former pastor and another elder. Nothing even close to an answer. They were both very kind. And I like the people at church. They’re nearly all liberal or progressive Christians, not fundies, so it’s not intolerable. But I continue to be amazed at how they all can seem to swallow up the dogma and not notice the cognitive dissonance. Maybe they do and are quiet about it, too. I keep hoping that there are at least a few like me.
>How has your relationship with your wife been?
Strained. She straddles between liberal and progressive Christianity, but her fundie CRC upbringing is well ingrained in her psyche. So we avoid the topic for the most part.
>Does she subscribe to a weak atheism too?
No. I think she wants to avoid the topic because she’s afraid if she hears me out she might slip out of faith, too.
David,
Thanks for the thorough comment. I wish I was more trained in theology, but let me just give you my thoughts on what you said. Most of what you’ve said assumes the Bible is true, which is a problem for many who doubt. They (myself included) not only doubt that God exists, but by default doubt that the Bible is true.
Your movie analogy, I think misses the mark. Granted it’s just an analogy, but your main point in using them is off. In all the Starship, Terminator, and the Lord of the Rings movies the killing of the evil ones is because the evils ones attacked first. The killing is out of self defense. I don’t think God is destroying evil doers out of self defense.
Two arguments I hear regarding us being evil is that God didn’t have to make us that way (or put the tree there in the first place), and even though I’m evil, why does he save some and not others? In regards to hell, if true, and if I’ve been chosen to go there, I wish I was never born. I blame my parents for birthing me so that I could spend an eternity in hell. If God knows everything, why let my parents conceive so that another person can burn in the eternal flames? This just makes me think that there is something God hasn’t told us. Maybe physical death isn’t the end and final decision point. Maybe after death, God gives us a view of life from his perspective, and gives us the knowledge to actually make a choice. I believe there is a lot we don’t know about, and not everything is how we think it is.
A couple of other quick comments:
I think the Bible does indicate that people turn to him when presented with evidence. Paul converted when Jesus appeared to him from heaven. Thomas and the other disciples believed when the resurrected Jesus appeared to them. Many of the early Christians believed because they saw the resurrected Jesus. We don’t have any accounts of people who saw the risen Jesus and still denied him resurrected. Only after Jesus ascended do we have some abstract unverifiable work of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of people who believe in the invisible.
Sure God didn’t need to send us a savior, but he also didn’t need to create us or give us the option to damn ourselves.
I would appreciate any prayers that God would take out my heart of stone and give me a heart that believes in God, because I can’t do it myself (like you said).
A useful interview to listen to. Pretty much sums up my path also:
http://tinyurl.com/cvvfmt
(Interview with Bart Ehrman)
Pither,
Yeah, on some Sundays I find it difficult to go to church. I do think the church needs to be more than a supportive community helping the world, if not, they would just be a charity organization. The church is based on believers who believe they have a personal relationship with God.
I would encourage you to talk to more people about your doubt. I know it puts you in an awkward situation, but hiding it is not going to help. I’m a hypocrite in this though, because I have yet to tell my mom and dad. I have talked to several people at my church, and they have been very supportive. Maybe you’ll run into someone like yourself.
I grew up in a very liberal CRC and my wife a fundie CRC (wow, I have a lot in common with you). It was difficult and still is difficult to talk about. I fear that I will in some way lead her astray, and she fears of what lay ahead for me. So the easy default is to not talk about it. But that’s unhealthy for any relationship. So as of yesterday we agreed to talk about it more. I would encourage you and your wife to talk about it. I understand her fear, however, is a faith worth having if it can’t stand up to questioning?
Pither,
The link you posted doesn’t work.
Here’s the link again:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131
Hi Mark,
I do assume the Bible is true — I hope that’s okay, as I said before, I don’t really put much faith in apologetics. I do have faith in God to save, so I depend on showing people God, their sin and the real gospel! Paul says it is the gospel that is the power unto salvation. I truly hope and pray that you are saved.
That’s a good point about the movie analogy. So, three questions: #1 Why does God punish us, if not for self Defense. #2 Does the punishment fit the Crime. #3 Why did God make us this way.
I don’t believe the answers to these questions would satisfy a non believer, because they also assume the Bible is true — but they are answers nonetheless:
#1A Because we are evil, and God is just. God is so just, no evil will go unpunished. We expect the same now from our judges. We want evil to be punished.
#2A If hell were not eternal, that would have some strange implications. If God did not punish at all, I believe that would be un just. If God punished a little bit… wouldn’t that seem finite of God? Suppose we were in hell for 37 years for our sins. Why 37 years? If God is infinitely good, and we are evil, I think a punishment infinite in length is all that makes sense. Hell is not an absence of God as is sometimes said in American Christianity; it’s actually the presence of God’s wrath. God could annihilate sinners, but he has chosen to punish them in this manner. The idea of hell, makes me uncomfortable. Back to the starship troopers analogy, here is where I trust that God is just and good, and I pray to God and ask him to give me his understanding. I must humble myself to God here. (I know that’s not a very satisfactory answer.)
#3A God could have made us perfect, pretty good, evil, very evil, or not at all.
Which glorifies God the most? I think by creating humans, that fall to a state of total depravity, and then redeeming us to a state of total perfection. By doing so, we see all the attributes of God to their fullest extent: The justice, mercy, and love. God’s wrath will be poured out on sinners. God will show love, by being merciful to the most undeserving.
It’s not as though we are seperated from our evil nature… as though we are netural beings, that God made evil. We are evil beings. We could ask why God made evil beings, but it won’t change the fact (again, if true) that we are.
That seems like a lot of bad news — but if those things are true — I say this lovingly, I think your approach might be fruitless. If you Mark, are evil, and God exists and is good, you cannot be saved by looking for God to prove himself to you. If the God of the bible exists, he cannot be played with — this is the same God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The same God who killed nearly everiy animal, man, woman, and child in a flood. The same God who strikes people dead in Old and New Testaments. The same God who promises to send people to hell for eternity. If THAT part is true, then the God we hear about in church is a figment of our imaginations — and would NEVER be found no matter how much we pray and ask him to reveal himself!
Mark, I do have GOOD news though! The same God who will destroy sinners… is a merciful God. So merciful that Jonah did not want to preach at Ninevah, because he knew if they repented, God would forgive them.
Anyone who wants to be saved can be. You must repent Mark. You must repent of any sin; and that means turning from lies, lust, pride, selfishness, lack of love, lack of compassion, trust in yourself, hatred, and idolatry. If you humble yourself to God, and you abandon trusting in yourself, he will reveal himself to you. But you must repent, repent of believing yourself to be good. Once you see your sin and you have repented, the savior becomes beautiful and precious. This is why some people have a passion for Christ, and others don’t. They’ve seen what they are. Though you did not deserve it, God sent God (Jesus) to save you from God! That is why we sing of Amazing Grace… that God would save a WRETCH like me, is absolutely amazing.
You don’t need theology training to understand any of this. You’ll see most of what I’ve said in John 3, 6, 7, 8, 10, 15, and 17.
Especially John Chapter Six, very slowly, with a pen and paper in hand, drawing venn diagrams, I think you’ll find something interesting. I mean really slow… after every verse, compare it to every verse already written in six. Understand each and every word and implication. (This is really only necessary after the people follow Jesus across the sea, the verses prior are just background.)
Hey Mark,
I wish I could give you a pep talk, but I’ll gladly admit that it doesn’t get easier. Both the honest atheist and the honest Christian must admit their constant struggle with doubt. The atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel says this about his struggle, “I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God!” I’m someone on the other side. I have done my research (and continue to do it), read the major books on both sides, and remain a Christian, much more informed now, yet still hoping that God is real and that the resurrection happened in history.
I’ve reached a point where the doubts aren’t nearly as strong, but they’re still there and probably will be for the rest of my life. I think that people who don’t struggle with doubt (no matter their worldview) simply haven’t thought enough about what they believe and the gaps in that belief (because all worldviews that I know of have pretty big gaps at points).
I know that on the “slippery slope of life” that we are forced to live with some amount of “cognitive dissonance,” as Pither mentions above. I’ll continue to pray that God will bring you some amount of peace, and that he’ll answer some of your questions, but don’t expect them to ever completely leave no matter what worldview you end up fully embracing…
In Christ,
Kyle
Thanks Kyle for your honest and humble remarks. It’s encouraging to see that one can still believe even with some level of doubt. What led you out of doubt/unbelief? What tipped the scales? Did you finally have to “just believe” or did you find something solid which you could step forward in faith?
You ask, “Did you finally have to “just believe” or did you find something solid which you could step forward in faith?”
Is ‘somewhat solid’ an option? I’m going to be completely honest in this comment and if you don’t share it that’s okay. I only check your blog sporadically so I might not be able to respond quickly. I spent a very long time struggling with what it meant to completely lose my faith. I talked to my wife about how I was pretty sure that if I wasn’t an atheist that I was headed down that path. Why am I not there now? There are a few reasons:
1. I studied the atheistic worldview more…not from Dawkins and their ilk, but from the big boys like Oppy, Martin and Nagel. I was hoping that their arguments would give me the secure footing that I thought I had back when I was an ignorant Christian (I mean one of the ‘blind faith’ types). These philosophers simply didn’t have the strong arguments I was hoping for and like what I quoted from Nagel above, I found out that their arguments were often qualified by uncertainty as well.
2. I kept studying Christianity. I’m not a fundamentalist and haven’t really been that affected by fundamentalist churches, so I was more open to share my doubts and confusion with pastors and educated Christian friends and read a lot of book suggestions. I found more compelling answers than I had before and these helped lead me back into a more reasoned faith. I personally found the arguments made by many of the better Christian philosophers to be just as compelling as those made by the atheist ones.
3. I talked to a lot of people. I spent time talking to ex-Christians, ex-atheists and some who had dabbled in both before settling on a firm view. I found that many of the reasons people left Christianity were different from my doubts, and usually rather intellectually shallow reasons to leave IMO (i.e. stuff like…”the NT is primarily based on myths so I can’t believe anymore”…anyone who does the research without simply reading Bob Price and Richard Carrier knows this to be a rather untenable position which is rejected by scholarship on the whole). I dug into why the former atheists had become Christians. Did they have the certainty that I wanted again? I also talked through e-mail to professors in the fields I was interested in studying at the time. I would e-mail NT and OT scholars, philosophers (atheist and theist), etc. with questions. Most responded and were very helpful. I’m still in dialogue with a few.
4. I came to the realization that if we’re honest, none of us are completely certain about much of the things we most value in life, and we simply have to play the game on a field that moves around and is somewhat unstable. For some people who only think in black/white fundamentalist categories, that means that they reject Christianity or atheism because their beliefs are shaken, but then hop into a fundamentalist form of the other system simply because they want to be ‘certain’ again. This is probably 90% of the stuff you read online at ex-whatever sites, ya know? Instead, the honest people on both sides of these discussions say that they are not certain, but they’re not simply “just believing” or making a “blind leap of faith” one way or the other. No matter your worldview there is something of a leap, but for those who have really thought through their worldview the leap is much more reasoned.
So it was a long hard process. I didn’t just give up because I was tired of seeking answers and waiting (although I wanted to), and eventually I found some that have restored my faith. I now understand the atheistic worldview much better, some of their best arguments and have actual reasons (not just fears) for why I personally can’t embrace atheism or agnosticism (i.e. weak atheism). I also had a few of the transcendental moments which helped me along the way…I wish those were more frequent.
I’ve mentioned some books that helped me before (including the one you’re reading by Wright). It’s not a knock down argument, because neither side has one of those…history can’t be proven one way or the other on any matter…yet I think his arguments are sufficient for belief. Still, while it’s a difficult book it’s probably the most comprehensive book on the resurrection that I’ve read. It deals very honestly with the highest level of scholarship on the topics. But, I hope you aren’t simply placing your hopes at finally finding or losing faith based on that book alone. Trust me, it’s a long process one way or the other.
You (and your family) will continue to be in my prayers, and I hope you will include me and my family in yours.
In Christ,
Kyle
Kyle,
Thanks for sharing what lead you back to faith. Regarding #1 and #2, I too agree that the atheistic worldview is also shadowed in uncertainty and that there are good arguments on both sides. But that is my problem. I’m in doubt, not knowing whether Christianity or atheism is true. I just don’t know. .
Regarding #3, I’m in the very early stages here. I’m interacting with more people, reading more than I have in my life, and trying to organize my thoughts.
Regarding #4, I agree that none of us can be completely certain about much of the things we most value in life. For instance, the love of a spouse is a valuable thing; however, one cannot be certain that one’s spouse will not fall out of love someday. But one can keep living in the assurance of that love until evidence indicates otherwise. I think in reality we live based on probability. I think it is very unlikely that my wife will fall out of love with me, so I can live my life being confident of that love. That is the strength I see with naturalism; there is a high probability that things can be explained by natural means. How probable is it that there needs to be a supernatural explanation? I’m not saying that a supernatural explanation is impossible; I’m just saying it appears improbable. Granted I’m early in this research, but I’ve never experience the supernatural, I haven’t seen evidence that points to a supernatural cause, the supernatural is outside my ability to know whether it is true or not.
The long road out of unbelief that you indicate, although honest, is not encouraging. Why does it need to be so hard? Why can’t it just be as simple as “Repent and Believe”? I hope someday I’ll be able to look back and see the necessity of the struggle.
David,
You’ve essentially told Mark that he will get nothing from God until he “just believes”, and you’ve strongly implied that his inability to believe is a product of his own sin, or possibly God’s arbitrary will.
On the other hand, you said that you yourself struggled with doubt until God did a supernatural work in your life.
Would you be willing to elaborate on the “supernatural work” that God did in you that has enabled you to stop doubting and believe? Why do you think that God might have given you this gift, but would be unwilling to give a simliar gift to Mark?
Thanks in advance,
Gideon
Mark,
Your story grieves my heart, because I have been where you are.
God isn’t invisible. Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
Praying that you will be like the man in Mark 8 who cried out to Jesus: “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
Sincerely,
Natalie
Hi Natalie,
A couple comments:
1. What helped you when you were in doubt?
2. Jesus maybe the image of the invisible God, but that only helped a couple of hundred people 2000 years ago. For those today, to believe in an invisible God is tough.
3. Thanks for the prayers. I hope they work. Right now I can’t even cry out like the man in Mark 8. All I can cry is, “I don’t even know if I believe anymore; help me overcome my unbelief”
Hi Mark,
I have been trying to think of how to best answer your question about what helped me when I was in doubt. Like you, I struggled with evolution. Yet, what finally drew me back to faith in Christ had nothing to do with evolution. I realized that I didn’t really understand the Bible. Partly, because I didn’t care to, and also because I was never taught to correctly understand what it contained.
I recently read a book and a half by two prominent atheists (a half because the author of one was so arrogant that I couldn’t finish it to even hear his points). What I realized about both authors is that even as they tried to debunk Christianity, their arguments fell flat because they lacked complete understanding about the purpose of Scripture.
I was always taught that Christianity was primarily about a way to live. The Old Testament contained a lot of great stories about people who accomplished awesome things with the help of God, and the New Testament had Jesus dying on the cross to pay for my sins, but honestly, I just couldn’t live the way it prescribed. That led me to hopelessness and doubt.
When God showed me that the Bible was really not about me, but about His plan of redemption, I was able to read the Bible in a whole new light. Without even considering the outside evidence to support the historical accuracy of the Bible, think about what it contains: sixty-six books written over about 1600 years by 44 different men, yet unified in providing one story- the story of God’s salvation for His people. That in itself is amazing!
When I read the Bible as God’s story, it helped me with your second question. In the Garden, God walked and talked with humans. Did it work? No. Then God established a covenant with Abraham and His people which eventually resulted in Him giving them the law and speaking to them through Moses. Additionally, He led them day and night through the wilderness. Did it work? No. Then God spoke to them through the Prophets. Did that work? No. Finally and definitively, He spoke to all mankind through His Son Jesus Christ and promised to send His Holy Spirit as a sign and a seal to lead and teach believers.
My greatest encouragement to you is to seek Him in His Word. It’s where He has spoken and He still speaks to us there today.
Praying that He will give you belief in the midst of your unbelief,
Natalie
Natalie,
I know that the Bible teaches God’s plan of redemption, but how do I know it is true? To me its not amazing that many of the books in the Bible point to God’s salvation, because almost all religions address after life issues. Just curious, you didn’t finish your list, “Finally and definitively, He spoke to all mankind through His Son Jesus Christ and promised to send His Holy Spirit as a sign and a seal to lead and teach believers.” Did it work?
Thanks for your encouragement. I have been reading the Bible and researching it.
May your prayers for me be answered,
-Mark
Wow David. You believe that humans deserve to suffer eternally for acting in ways that we cannot help to act (hello? sin nature?)
So much for your Deity’s “justice”.
Mark,
Well, when I saw that this was posted February 4th, I thought “cool, this is a fresh post.” Then, I realized that we are no longer in 2009. But anyways, I hope someone reads this. I really enjoyed this post, especially the exchange of comments below (I read every one). I just ended up here somehow after a couple hours of reading “ex-Christian” and “debunking Christianity” sites, because I am a Christian who is going through a similar struggle myself.
I’m going to respond to some of the thoughts above, contribute some thoughts of mine that I think might be helpful to the general discussion, and then just go on from there with my own thoughts, because I don’t have a blog, and it’s rare that I get to honestly share my thoughts on this subject.
First, that definitely sucks to be praying to God for faith and not seeming to receive any answers. I’ve definitely been there. I pray similarly, “God, if you’re real, if you’re there, show me… I’m open.” I can definitely relate to the loneliness of not being able to share your doubt with those around you. Ahhh…. the anonymity of the internet
To David, there is something to be said about the whole Spirit witnessing to the scriptures thing. There are some pretty powerful passages of scripture that have really resonated with me before, and even now. One thing that testifies to me the power of scripture is the prophecy that through Abraham’s seed all nations will be blessed, and that Abraham’s descendants would number as the stars in the sky. Christians believe that knowing Christ is an incredible (the ultimate?) blessing, and Jesus was a son of Abraham. There are millions, well more than a thousand million people on this earth that identify with the name “Christian.” So descended from a man who would be the father of a relatively small nation (compared to the empires of the day), would come someone who would claim to be the messiah, and not just to bless his people, but all of the people of earth. His followers spread his message of salvation, and now more than a thousand million believe, and according to the New Testament, believers are “spiritual descendants of Abraham.” A Christ-centered society seems to be one that would be geared towards justice, mercy, charity, and a striving towards peace. There’s just so much in the Bible about justice and defending the weak/poor. I don’t see how a logical basis for this can be found in an atheistic worldview, though many atheists herald these causes. Also, we have the pattern of forgiveness taught and modeled by Christ, and he is called the “healer of the nations”. I met a young lady from Mongolia once. She described to me how her parents would be horrified if she wanted to marry a Chinese, and how there is still a lot of burning resentment between nations in the area, for past atrocities and oppression etc., though underneath the surface to most of us Americans. She asked me how I thought these tensions could be relieved. At first I was too timid to reply “the Gospel,” but later I told her that was what I thought. All of these things indicate to me that Abraham was indeed the father of many nations, and that through his seed all nations have been blessed. And it seems odd that the whole prophesy was poppycock if it has been arguably fulfilled.
Something that I’ve thought about is that maybe the whole Bible is not some perfect writing straight from the mouth of God. This may seem funny considering the previous paragraph, but what if God is the creator, and he did work with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Israel as a nation, and sent Jesus to spread his message to the nations and show us his true character, but that with men recording all these things, though there is much good in the Bible, and much profound and even prophetic passages, it is still man’s writing and so capable of error. In comments above, there was some discussion about the justice of God given the doctrine of original sin and the idea of eternal damnation. In a letter of Paul’s, he writes about this issue, where some are seemingly unable to prevent their hell-bound destiny, and he seems to be responding to those who think it’s unfair. He says that God is the potter, and we are the clay, and how can the clay say to the potter, “Why did you make me this way?” He goes on to say that God may make some vessels (we’re the vessels/pots) to be objects of His glory (the saved) and others to be objects of His wrath (the damned), and we have no right to question this. Now, I am not satisfied with this, and I imagine that several of you who posted above would not be either. The idea of God creating a thinking, feeling, being for the sole purpose of one day tormenting this person forever seems pretty cruel. Now, on the other hand, the idea of God sending a wicked king to hell who oppressed and stole from his people, massacred innocents, and made monuments to his own greatness doesn’t bother me as much. Or God sending to hell a wicked husband who cheated on his wife repeatedly, beat her, and molested their children doesn’t bother me too much either. But in Christianity, these people can go to heaven too, if they are truly sorry for their sins, repent, and ask God’s forgiveness in the name of Jesus. Whereas, according to orthodox Christianity, a person who has been raised in a Christian home and later rejected his faith can go to hell, without committing any of these atrocious offenses. How can this be? Why should the latter person be condemned, whereas the dastardly fellows are saved. This is where we come to the humility required for a genuine Christian understanding of the self and of depravity. I myself certainly feel worthy of damnation. I haven’t done the things I listed above, but besides evil thoughts and many selfish actions over the years, there’s one thing that seems to stand out. I broke a girl’s heart who I had led to love me. She was a Christian virgin who I “became one with.” Then after devastating her by breaking up, when later trying to be “friends,” against her will I physically forced her to kiss me… not quite rape, but bad enough to make her cry and make me feel like sh**. I believe someone like me is supposed to feel the same unworthiness of God or goodness as someone like the wicked king or husband above. And in fact, we all should feel that unworthiness. And so when a sinner, great or small, rejects the notion that he needs forgiveness, there is grounds for judgment of the sin.
This was kind of a side-track. The original immediate topic was about allowing for the fallibility of scripture. I brought up the Paul passage as an illustration for the idea that there may be good men who follow the true God, but who in attempting to explain God’s ways, draw from their own heads and may reason in ways unsatisfactory to us, and indeed in ways unsatisfactory to God. It seems odd to me to believe that the Bible is God’s one perfect way of communicating with man that we have with us today, while many pages are filled with census data from ancient Israel, or detailed accounts of the dimensions and decorum of various objects of the tabernacle. What if the basic philosophy and perspectives on God and man in the Bible are valid, and God did sometimes communicate directly with man, but that some of the authors in the Bible were confused about some things? Perhaps they were like us, trying to sift through reality and use there moral compasses and what had been passed down through the generations or personally experienced to try to understand God, his plan, and what righteousness and goodness are, but didn’t always interpret their world infallibly. Really, even this topic of the inspiration of scripture is tangential, and I will return to the existence of God.
Mark, in the post above, you said that there was no evidence of the super natural. Sometimes, I struggle with this, but I see more of a problem with a purely naturalistic universe, given my life experience as a whole. Allow me to begin my explanation with an anecdote. I had a good friend who was an agnostic. He suggested to me the idea that, “What if the story of a creator God and his relationship with humanity, culminating in the life and work of Jesus, was a great story, one of the greatest stories ever, but just a story?” I thought about the fundamental beauty of God’s redemptive plan in the Bible, and I think about the apparent meaning imbued into so much of life. We humans grow from infancy and are raised by our parents. We are loved, and we love. We feel… pleasure, pain, victory, defeat, remorse. We wonder at the meaning of life. We laugh and enjoy having some beer with our friends. We become angry when an injustice is committed. We think about how we can be a better older brother and make sure everyone in the family feels loved. We fall in love, hold hands, feel “on top of the world” and right at home. With a little effort, you may be able to explain most of these human characteristics from an evolutionary perspective. But from a purely naturalistic, atheistic perspective, does it really make sense? There was some infinitely dense “singularity.” It blew up in the big bang. Hot inanimate matter and energy flew everywhere, forming stars and planets too. One star had a planet with water. Some rock particles, salt, and water, formed primitive “cells”, by an odd coincidence. Some cells survived better than others, and the ones that survived better evolved into more complex life forms, and voila, a few hundred million years later, you have these beings who compose symphonies, write love poems, paint magnificent scenes, write beautiful prose that probes the depths of our hearts and minds, engineer suspension bridges and robotic arms, and write hilarious jokes to perform stand-up comedy. I’m not saying that these abilities are impossible to develop evolutionarily. I’m saying that it is absurd to me to imagine this existence without a God behind it. These observations do not necessarily warrant the God of the Bible, but some sort of intelligent, supernatural creator. I’m also not arguing that the complexity of biology mathematically requires “intelligent design,” through some probabilistic calculations. I’m saying that the depth of the human soul and experience implies a purposeful creator. In many ways, our lives are like stories, and human history is full of stories. It seems odd to have stories without an author. It seems odd for atomic reactions and collisions guided only by chemical and physical laws to write a story. And without God, these are the only forces that guide all of our being: our thoughts and words. In my view, the notion of absolute determinism is inescapable in an atheistic viewpoint. Of course we feel that our thoughts are our own, our decisions are our own, but it must be an illusion. For the same forces that impersonally turned bits of rock and salt and water into primitive cells are the same forces that guided these primitive cells into complex cells, then guided the complex cells into us, and must guide our thoughts, whether pro-Christian, pro-atheist, or in between or somewhere else entirely. So if you’re an atheist, then you must believe that the thought pathways that guided you towards atheism could have just as easily guided you towards Christian theism, and that “you” had nothing to do with it, just chemistry and physics. In fact, there really isn’t a “you” at all. You’re just bag of bags of chemicals.
The fact that anything meaningful exists without God seems absurd. And indeed, in looking at the writings of atheist philosophers and “deep” fiction writers of the last century and a half, they seem to agree. Here’s a link to an interview with an author of a book called “Meaninglessness: The Solutions of Nietzsche, Freud and Rorty” http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:XQYG-Jb4iaIJ:www.mercatornet.com/articles/the_ultimate_conversation_stopper_does_life_have_meaning/+nietzsche+meaning&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a . The author speaks/writes much better than I, so give it a read. It is interesting that one of Nietzsche’s works he called The Antichrist. Also, check out Absurdism as a philosophy (Wiki). Here’s Kierkegaard (not an Atheist), in The Sickness Unto Death, writing about the absurd man in a meaningless world: “… in spite of or in defiance of the whole of existence he wills to be himself with it, to take it along, almost defying his torment. For to hope in the possibility of help, not to speak of help by virtue of the absurd, that for God all things are possible – no, that he will not do. And as for seeking help from any other – no, that he will not do for all the world; rather than seek help he would prefer to be himself – with all the tortures of hell, if so it must be.” That’s some pride there. The Bible definitely has a lot to say about what God thinks of the prideful.
Atheist philosophers mostly expressly hate Christianity, which lends support to Jesus’s words “the world will hate me and those that follow me.” Some of the most prominent atheists hate Christianity with a passion. They seek to paint themselves as dispassionate critics, but then can’t resist going on lengthy (emotional) tirades against Christianity and Christian values. I was always taught that the desire for complete autonomy was the original sin. The goal was to be like God, and hence to not have anyone above ourselves. If atheist writers came to their conclusions purely through reason, why would they spend so much time bashing the idea of God, and those who believed in a God. And you also hear much decrying of the rules inherit in religion (in the words of an everyday person): “well, if some infinite being wants to tell me I can’t do this or that, he can kiss my ass.” Maybe these God-bashing atheists do want to be their own god.
Will, this little schpeal seems to be ending rather weakly, because I’m very tired, it started out… well if not “strong”, at least energetic.
I do feel sorry for those who do not find meaning or God in the universe. I believe that many of you do not come to this conclusion from pride, but from an honest doubt that comes from within, and from some of the same difficulties that I have with various passages in the Bible, and common understandings in evangelical Christianity today. I have had these same doubts about the fundamental trueness of my faith, and still do have some uncertainty, but at times I just feel so convinced at the power of Christianity, and I hope that you do not give up without continuing to seek answers, and considering the power of Christianity to explain human nature and existence.
PS Apologies for the not-always thought process, and general wordiness. If I only I had time to edit… I commend you if you made it this far.