Comments on: Evolution http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=evolution thoughts from someone dealing with doubt Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:06:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Reto http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-42 Reto Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:09:13 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-42 Hi Mark I don't think it's symbolic, watch this passage in Acts 19: 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. But you have been baptized so that is not the issue. I'm telling you straight away: if I wouldn't have that witness (I suppose it's the Holy Spirit), I wouldn't be able to believe either, as I mentioned: being kind of a philosopher. Let's take one of Jesus' confessions and see how you respond: (John 11) 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. Isn't there something special about the passage? Keep in mind that "... the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Fix your mind on scripture, especially those passages where Jesus is saying who he is and why he came into the world. Soak it in, don't try to find reasons against or for it. As you continue to do this you should notice the witness I am talking about. Greetings, Reto Hi Mark

I don’t think it’s symbolic, watch this passage in Acts 19:

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

But you have been baptized so that is not the issue. I’m telling you straight away: if I wouldn’t have that witness (I suppose it’s the Holy Spirit), I wouldn’t be able to believe either, as I mentioned: being kind of a philosopher.

Let’s take one of Jesus’ confessions and see how you respond:
(John 11)
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Isn’t there something special about the passage?
Keep in mind that “… the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Fix your mind on scripture, especially those passages where Jesus is saying who he is and why he came into the world. Soak it in, don’t try to find reasons against or for it. As you continue to do this you should notice the witness I am talking about.

Greetings,
Reto

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Mark Lefers Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:21:24 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-40 Immersed, but please tell me why that matters. Baptism is symbolic and not some magical hocus-pocus? Immersed, but please tell me why that matters. Baptism is symbolic and not some magical hocus-pocus?

]]> By: Reto http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-39 Reto Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:54:31 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-39 As an adult... have you been sprinkled or immersed? As an adult… have you been sprinkled or immersed?

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-38 Mark Lefers Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:49:25 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-38 Reto, Your first guess is baptizism? To answer your question, I was baptized as an infant and was also baptized as an adult about 4 years ago. So that should cover the bases right? Reto,
Your first guess is baptizism? To answer your question, I was baptized as an infant and was also baptized as an adult about 4 years ago. So that should cover the bases right?

]]> By: Reto http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-37 Reto Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:46:30 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-37 Hi Mark Keep in mind that God isn't rejecting people. He even accepts the worst sinners. Think of the prodigal son. Or the wedding banquet. So why don't you have a witness of Jesus being the Christ? I think it must have other reasons. It's not that you're not good enough or a fallen one or anything ot that kind. My first guess would be that you are not properly baptized. Have you been baptized at all? And if so, how and when did it happen? Greetings, Reto Hi Mark

Keep in mind that God isn’t rejecting people. He even accepts the worst sinners. Think of the prodigal son. Or the wedding banquet.
So why don’t you have a witness of Jesus being the Christ? I think it must have other reasons. It’s not that you’re not good enough or a fallen one or anything ot that kind. My first guess would be that you are not properly baptized. Have you been baptized at all? And if so, how and when did it happen?

Greetings,
Reto

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-36 Mark Lefers Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:00:21 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-36 Kavar, Thanks for the link. Pretty scary stats. I guess its no wonder that the US is loosing their edge in the sciences. Reto, So if the Father is the only one who can give faith where does that leave me? I don’t want to have doubt. I wish I could just believe. I pray that God will give me faith. But if He never does give me faith is it really my fault then? I think there has to be some searching and reasoning and believing on our part. I think there is a mysterious mix of both free will and predestination. I call myself not a true Christian, because as of today my doubt is closer to unbelief. I once totally believed in Jesus Christ as my personal savior, but I doubt that today. I believe in the historical Jesus, but do not know if he really rose from the dead. I don’t know if I have as you put it “a witness in myself that Jesus is the Messiah”. The wanting Christianity to be true probably comes from my 30 year history in the faith or a human instinct of not wanting to die. A desire for something to be true unfortunately doesn’t make it true. Kavar,
Thanks for the link. Pretty scary stats. I guess its no wonder that the US is loosing their edge in the sciences.
Reto,
So if the Father is the only one who can give faith where does that leave me? I don’t want to have doubt. I wish I could just believe. I pray that God will give me faith. But if He never does give me faith is it really my fault then? I think there has to be some searching and reasoning and believing on our part. I think there is a mysterious mix of both free will and predestination.
I call myself not a true Christian, because as of today my doubt is closer to unbelief. I once totally believed in Jesus Christ as my personal savior, but I doubt that today. I believe in the historical Jesus, but do not know if he really rose from the dead. I don’t know if I have as you put it “a witness in myself that Jesus is the Messiah”. The wanting Christianity to be true probably comes from my 30 year history in the faith or a human instinct of not wanting to die. A desire for something to be true unfortunately doesn’t make it true.

]]> By: Reto http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-35 Reto Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:46:36 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-35 Hi Mark "But what am I supposed to do then? Just have faith?" No. A lot of people preach something like this but I think it contradicts the NT. Take these verses for example: "15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. " Flesh and blood cannot reveal it, which supports my view, that reasoning cannot lead to faith. You can try, but you will fail. Or end up as a hypocrite. "What do you mean that you “hear his voice”? Am I supposed to just wait for God to give me faith?" No. You write you don't consider yourself to be a true christian. But you also don't deny Jesus per se. You can't make up your mind. There are several things playing a role here. The first thing I would want to know: Do you get a (small?) witness in your self that Jesus is the Messiah? (Put reasoning aside: do you believe it or not? Very simple) If your answer to this question is no, I could advice you what would be the next step. Then it's also important to see what Jesus describes in the parable of the mustard seed. If the seed has been planted in your being it needs time to grow. Once it has grown it will be bigger than anything. By "hearing his voice" I mean that I get this witness when I ask myself if Jesus is indeed the Christ. There is faith coming from within, apart from reason. Have a nice day, Reto Hi Mark

“But what am I supposed to do then? Just have faith?”
No. A lot of people preach something like this but I think it contradicts the NT.
Take these verses for example:
“15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. ”
Flesh and blood cannot reveal it, which supports my view, that reasoning cannot lead to faith. You can try, but you will fail. Or end up as a hypocrite.

“What do you mean that you “hear his voice”? Am I supposed to just wait for God to give me faith?”
No. You write you don’t consider yourself to be a true christian. But you also don’t deny Jesus per se. You can’t make up your mind. There are several things playing a role here. The first thing I would want to know: Do you get a (small?) witness in your self that Jesus is the Messiah? (Put reasoning aside: do you believe it or not? Very simple) If your answer to this question is no, I could advice you what would be the next step. Then it’s also important to see what Jesus describes in the parable of the mustard seed. If the seed has been planted in your being it needs time to grow. Once it has grown it will be bigger than anything. By “hearing his voice” I mean that I get this witness when I ask myself if Jesus is indeed the Christ. There is faith coming from within, apart from reason.

Have a nice day,
Reto

]]> By: Kavar http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-34 Kavar Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:09:20 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-34 A few times in my travels of the internet, I've run across various polling of a large number of countries on the issue. The best I can find right now is <a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html" rel="nofollow">this National Geographic one</a> (hoping this dash of html works in your comments). This particular set is a bit more favorable to the US than the ones I usually see, which push the "False" side right up against 50%. Of course, it might be the phrasing of the question. Cyprus also rates higher on "False" here than I usually see. In the cases of the African nations, to the best of my recollection, a majority had no opinion on the issue. The middle east, though the Islamist (note: not Islamic) leaders insist that evolution is a lie, last I saw, just about half of people in most of their countries believed in evolution, and probably 20% with no opinion. As far as the salvation from sin part, and the eternal life, I kind of meant for those to be implied; sorry I wasn't clearer on that. A few times in my travels of the internet, I’ve run across various polling of a large number of countries on the issue. The best I can find right now is this National Geographic one (hoping this dash of html works in your comments). This particular set is a bit more favorable to the US than the ones I usually see, which push the “False” side right up against 50%. Of course, it might be the phrasing of the question. Cyprus also rates higher on “False” here than I usually see. In the cases of the African nations, to the best of my recollection, a majority had no opinion on the issue. The middle east, though the Islamist (note: not Islamic) leaders insist that evolution is a lie, last I saw, just about half of people in most of their countries believed in evolution, and probably 20% with no opinion.

As far as the salvation from sin part, and the eternal life, I kind of meant for those to be implied; sorry I wasn’t clearer on that.

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-33 Mark Lefers Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:15:48 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-33 Kavar, I’m curious about the US and Turkey being the only countries that have the majority of the population reject evolution. I would think that many of the middle east and African countries would be in the same boat. Or is it the creationism/ID movement? Do you have an article regarding this? Just curious. I agree with you that a literal reading of the Bible is a bad idea. The problem then is that the interpretation of the Bible is left up to the reader. So many things have been read into the Bible. This then leads to the broad spectrum from atheism to fundamentalism. This is where I found myself struggling. Where does the truth lay? Is it just ancient literature or is it something more? I like your last sentence about “what it all comes down to”, however Christianity is more than just moral teachings, it’s about salvation from sin, and a gift of eternal life. Kavar,
I’m curious about the US and Turkey being the only countries that have the majority of the population reject evolution. I would think that many of the middle east and African countries would be in the same boat. Or is it the creationism/ID movement? Do you have an article regarding this? Just curious.
I agree with you that a literal reading of the Bible is a bad idea. The problem then is that the interpretation of the Bible is left up to the reader. So many things have been read into the Bible. This then leads to the broad spectrum from atheism to fundamentalism. This is where I found myself struggling. Where does the truth lay? Is it just ancient literature or is it something more?
I like your last sentence about “what it all comes down to”, however Christianity is more than just moral teachings, it’s about salvation from sin, and a gift of eternal life.

]]> By: Mark Lefers http://www.christiandoubt.com/2009/01/01/evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-32 Mark Lefers Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:59:25 +0000 http://christiandoubt.com/?p=104#comment-32 Reto, I am not stubbornly accepting evolution out of ignorance or out of relying on the so-called experts. I’m a scientist with a Ph.D. in multiple fields of cellular biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics, and developmental biology. As you may know, evolution plays a key role in each of these fields. So I would say I am accepting evolution because it is true. In this blog, I would rather stay away from arguing about the merits of evolution (again there are a multitude of blogs that do that). I would rather discuss what do we do with faith and doubt with the understanding that evolution is true. You say that I will “never be able to overcome doubt by studying books or applying reason.” But what am I supposed to do then? Just have faith? What do you mean that you “hear his voice”? Am I supposed to just wait for God to give me faith? If so, could it be that <a href="http://christiandoubt.com/2008/11/04/have-i-been-chosen-to-be-fallen/" rel="nofollow">God just chose me to be a fallen one</a>? Reto, I am not stubbornly accepting evolution out of ignorance or out of relying on the so-called experts. I’m a scientist with a Ph.D. in multiple fields of cellular biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics, and developmental biology. As you may know, evolution plays a key role in each of these fields. So I would say I am accepting evolution because it is true.

In this blog, I would rather stay away from arguing about the merits of evolution (again there are a multitude of blogs that do that). I would rather discuss what do we do with faith and doubt with the understanding that evolution is true.

You say that I will “never be able to overcome doubt by studying books or applying reason.” But what am I supposed to do then? Just have faith? What do you mean that you “hear his voice”? Am I supposed to just wait for God to give me faith? If so, could it be that God just chose me to be a fallen one?

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